Originally posted by @suzianne
You should bother going to the link. There's too much in it to summarize succinctly.

And you should read that thread in debates 😉

Originally posted by @fmf
People - both believers and non-believers - may have strong objections to the excesses and alienations of organized religion, but I think belief in God or a lack of belief in God does not hinge on that for most non-believers because there are clearly alternatives to 'ugly religion' for those who are interested in - or persuaded by - Christian beliefs. I think y ...[text shortened]... tty clumsy idea into this conversation by generalizing about people who lack belief in this way.

So no, you have no more "gotchas". You're invested in the same debunked one. Of course. It's your opinion, so you must be right.

And here I thought that atheists of character would see what I'm trying to say, instead of nitpicking a stupid conceptual idea just to shut me up. Tell me, genius... how many Christians in this forum do you think show enough character to call most of the predominant Christian thinking 'bull'? And here you stand, preferring to argue with me over something that has ZERO to do with my point. Well trolled.

Originally posted by @divegeester
And you should read that thread in debates 😉

"That thread"?

And I should somehow know exactly what the hell you're talking about by this?

Originally posted by @suzianne
And here I thought that atheists of character would see what I'm trying to say, instead of nitpicking a stupid conceptual idea just to shut me up. Tell me, genius... how many Christians in this forum do you think show enough character to call most of the predominant Christian thinking 'bull'? And here you stand, preferring to argue with me over something that has ZERO to do with my point. Well trolled.

The video-polemic is essentially a political one. And an unremarkable one at that. Good for you for seeing that it has a point. But you are extrapolating something from its political message and making sweeping generalizations about the lack of belief in supernatural causality that characterizes what atheists have in common. How many atheists have a lack of belief due to the obvious mundanity and crassness of what many religionist demagogues get up to? I'd say a minority. What say you?

Originally posted by @suzianne
You're invested in the same debunked one.

In which of your posts on page 1 do you think you 'debunked' the premise of this observation/question? For what proportion of atheists do you believe this "all the rest of it" thing you are talking about is the reason for not believing in supernatural causality? I'd have thought it was a minority.

Originally posted by @suzianne
"That thread"?

And I should somehow know exactly what the hell you're talking about by this?

The Shavixmir one where you blundered in several pages in (as you tend to do) made a comment that revealed that you hadn’t read the thread at all but wanted to take a pop at me, and then you exited.

Originally posted by @suzianne
... here you stand, preferring to argue with me over something that has ZERO to do with my point.

I am addressing your point head on, Suzianne.

What proportion of atheists do you think would start believing that Jesus is their saviour ~ who forgave them their "sins", and so now they will go on to an afterlife if they believe in him, because he was crucified etc. etc. ~ if there were an end to the kind of political, ideological and theological realities covered by the video? Five percent? Ten? Fifteen? What say you?

Because here you are generalizing about atheists as if they are a monolithic mass of people for whom only the nature of parts of organized religion stand between and them continuing to lack belief in a supernatural being and them becoming Christians. It's an assertion that does not ring true.

How do you justify your generalization? How many of the atheists on this forum do you think would become Christians if only it were not for the political stuff in the video, for instance? One of them? Three of them? Nearly all of them?

Originally posted by @fmf
On the contrary, I am engaging what you said. Are you trying to shut down/cut off what I am saying, by any chance? I think you are generalizing about atheists. I think you are projecting onto them what is most likely a secondary concern for most, and citing it as a primary or widespread reason for their lack of belief.

Just as Atheists generalize Christians, so do Christians generalize atheists. And why not. Because each lives in thier own world. What can be forgotten on both sides is that we are all humans, and individuals. Once the christians can come out of thier cucoon and see that everyone is a creation of God, And once the athiests can step beyond their limits to how people can think. There will never be a chance to work together with open philosiphy.

Originally posted by @pudgenik
Just as Atheists generalize Christians, so do Christians generalize atheists. And why not. Because each lives in thier own world. What can be forgotten on both sides is that we are all humans, and individuals. Once the christians can come out of thier cucoon and see that everyone is a creation of God, And once the athiests can step beyond their limits to how people can think. There will never be a chance to work together with open philosiphy.

What complete and utter generalized and bromide dross.

Originally posted by @fmf
What complete and utter generalized and bromide dross.

but of course you would say that. As you believe you are an enlightened Athiest

Originally posted by @fmf
... generalizing about atheists as if they are a monolithic mass of people ...

And that applies to Christians and even more if you include other brands of theism.
I think the girl in the video is targeting the overwhelming influence of a particular brand of Christianity in her society, politically and socially. As far as that goes I more or less agree ...[text shortened]... come across people on various spiritual paths who's sanctity is obvious whether faith based or not.

And that applies to Christians and even more if you include other brands of theism.
I think the girl in the video is targeting the overwhelming influence of a particular brand of Christianity in her society, politically and socially. As far as that goes I more or less agree with her. I'm all for equal access in society for atheists.

I think many of the problems of religion come with a stringent adherence to "beliefs" sometimes in the face of hard evidence to the contrary. Stephen Batchelor alluded to this in his book Buddhism without Beliefs which could apply also to Christianity. If Christianity was seen more of a pathway to follow towards being the best human being we can be based on the teaching and example of Jesus of Nazereth, rather than a belief system it would be the better for it. I'm sure we have all come across people on various spiritual paths who's sanctity is obvious whether faith based or not.

Originally posted by @pudgenik
but of course you would say that. As you believe you are an enlightened Athiest

I don't think enlightened people of any stripe fall back on the banal platitudes, although you may choose to.

Originally posted by @ragwort
And that applies to Christians and even more if you include other brands of theism.
I think the girl in the video is targeting the overwhelming influence of a particular brand of Christianity in her society, politically and socially. As far as that goes I more or less agree with her. I'm all for equal access in society for atheists.

I think many of the ...[text shortened]... e across people on various spiritual paths who's sanctity is obvious whether faith based or not.

i do understand what you are saying. I am also Christian. i can say that i have an unfair advantage as my present thinking is not based on faith, but knowledge of God. Faith is but a stepping stone to knowledge.belief leads to faith, and faith leads to knowledge.

But i do not expect others to understand as i do. There are the meat eaters and those who eat only veggies, and there are some who eat everything. Yet in each catigory no one should be pregudiced to another. Just because others do not believe as i do, does not mean God does not love them, He loves all.

As for those who walk a life of love for all. Yet do not KNOW, God. God Judges each by thier heart. Not knowing God in your head is not as important as knowing love in your heart. If you love from your heart, you already know God

Originally posted by @pudgenik
Just as Atheists generalize Christians, so do Christians generalize atheists. And why not.

Talk us through this incisive bit of analysis:

"Once the christians can come out of thier cucoon and see that everyone is a creation of God, And once the athiests can step beyond their limits. There will never be a chance to work together with open philosiphy."

You could use Lego bricks to help you get your concept across. All bricks the same size. Just two colours.

You could have yellow Lego bricks for the Christians - they're the ones who are in their cocoons - and you could have red Lego bricks for the atheists - they're the ones who can't step beyond their limits to how people can think.

You could build various shapes with the two different coloured bricks and name your creations "We Are All Humans" #1 and #2 and so on. Call the whole two-tone collection "open philosiphy".

Maybe with these visual aids you could make your generalizations seem a wee bit more profound.

Originally posted by @pudgenik
i can say that i have an unfair advantage as my present thinking is not based on faith, but knowledge of God. Faith is but a stepping stone to knowledge.belief leads to faith, and faith leads to knowledge.

But i do not expect others to understand as i do. There are the meat eaters and those who eat only veggies, and there are some who eat everything. Ye ...[text shortened]... ot as important as knowing love in your heart. If you love from your heart, you already know God

Does this belief > faith > knowledge thing apply to anyone from any religion or only to you and people from your religion?