27 Dec '07 12:14>
This is like standing on the North pole and arguing about which way's West.
Originally posted by whodeyAs for myself, the issue revolves around "free will".
The implications of saying that God created the fall is that God created sin. However, if God is a holy God and without sin then how could this be?
Sin is by definition a deviation from a holy God's perfect will. At best you could say that one does not have free will thus he created one to deviate from his perfect will that is without sin. However, it ...[text shortened]... gainst the concept of free will along side an all knowing and all powerful God would say no.
Originally posted by LemonJelloSo you think that sin, which is by its very nature destructive, should only occur in a bubble? Unfortunatly that is not the way it happens. Our sins effect those around us even if they are "innocent". In fact, Christ also suffered from the sin of the world even though he did not contribute to it in the least. Was it unjust for them to crusify him? Yes it was, however, they did it just the same.
[b]As for myself, the issue revolves around "free will".
Yeah, but your "free will" theodicy has never made much sense. Going back to our past discussion on the suffering neonate with an intestinal blockage, your claim is that all suffering is the result (at least ultimately so) of sin and, by extension, the willful actions of mankind. Eve ebellion" is compatible with (and might even entail) his being a bumbling idiot.[/b]
Originally posted by rwingettI prefer this translation which says "I form the the light and create the dark. I make good fortune and create calamity, it is I, the Lord, who do all this."
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, [b]and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV)[/b]
Originally posted by bbarrMany Christians do claim that missing the mark is due entirely to a moral failure (e.g., rebellion against God, willful disobedience, etc.). However, perhaps I should have said a “willful moral failure”?
I'm confused here too. Aristotle's "doctrine of the mean" regarding virtues makes use of the idea of hitting or missing the mark. The courageous person responds appropriately to fear, he hits the mark and avoids the dual errors of brashness and cowardice. To miss the mark as the bravado or the coward does is to make an ethical error. This does not entail t ...[text shortened]... le ultimately responsible for their sins, since people don't create their own characters.
Originally posted by vistesdYou are certainly right that failures to act excellently can result from factors other than deficiencies of will or character. One can be led astray in action due to false information, exculpable inattention, causal forces that circumvent the evaluative faculties and/or the will, etc. I am unsure, however, whether these sorts of failures are ethical failures. I am also unsure of the extent to which various conceptions of sin are prepared to count these sorts of failures as sinful.
Many Christians do claim that missing the mark is due entirely to a moral failure (e.g., rebellion against God, willful disobedience, etc.). However, perhaps I should have said a “willful moral failure”?
The point of the translators of the Philokalia (and this is a strong stream on Eastern Orthodoxy) is that one can sin as a result of illusion: o ...[text shortened]... kedness. Again, that can be found in the Orthodox churches, but it seems not to be predominant.
Originally posted by bbarrJust to be clear, I am not saying that all Eastern Orthodox hold to these views, only that they seem to represent the majority.
You are certainly right that failures to act excellently can result from factors other than deficiencies of will or character. One can be led astray in action due to false information, exculpable inattention, causal forces that circumvent the evaluative faculties and/or the will, etc. I am unsure, however, whether these sorts of failures are ethical failures ...[text shortened]... ealing. What is to be healed when one is justified in A-ing and is motivated to A by virtue?
Originally posted by whodeySo you think that sin, which is by its very nature destructive, should only occur in a bubble?
So you think that sin, which is by its very nature destructive, should only occur in a bubble? Unfortunatly that is not the way it happens. Our sins effect those around us even if they are "innocent". In fact, Christ also suffered from the sin of the world even though he did not contribute to it in the least. Was it unjust for them to crusify him? Yes it ...[text shortened]... t think either scenerio is preferable. After all, we would all either be robots or dead.