1. Joined
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    26 Sep '07 15:29
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Jesus teaches silly things, like not checking out hot chicks. Things that are against our very nature. Is it any wonder that few actually follow what he said?
    What people call 'our very nature' or 'human nature' is simply a lack of maturity. From what I can tell, all Jesus asks is for one to mature beyond being a slave to the desires of the ego.
  2. Joined
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    26 Sep '07 15:48
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Perhaps it's because Christianity is a lake; you can walk around it, you can swim through it, you can row any millions of ways across it, or have someone else do it for you. Nobody is capable of saying how to follow Christ's teachings except for Christ and nobody's even sure if he knew what he was talking about, given that his disciples may or may not have ...[text shortened]... ch things as True Christians should remember something about being without sin and stones...
    My post wasn't about "Christianity". It was about the teachings of Jesus. From what I can tell, they're two very different things. "Christianity" appears to be whatever an individual wants it to be.

    Yes, all we have are the teachings of Jesus as written down in the New Testament. That said, I would think that if one professes to love Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus.

    What's disturbing is that it appears on the whole that those who profess to follow Jesus are no better at following the teachings of Jesus than the general population. One would think that if there were true believers and lovers of Jesus that this wouldn't be the case.

    There seem to be about 800 versions of "we try to follow Jesus' teachings but we all fall short" which are all just cop outs.

    If one truly loved Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus. If one truly believed in Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus. From what I can tell, Jesus doesn't ask one to "try", Jesus asks one to humbly follow.
  3. Joined
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    26 Sep '07 15:531 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    My post wasn't about "Christianity". It was about the teachings of Jesus. From what I can tell, they're two very different things. "Christianity" appears to be whatever an individual wants it to be.

    Yes, all we have are the teachings of Jesus as written down in the New Testament. That said, I would think that if one professes to love Jesus, one would f what I can tell, Jesus doesn't ask one to "try", Jesus asks one to humbly follow.
    Christianity and following Christ aren't the same thing?

    Tell me, how do you go about following Christ when you have never heard him speak, or seen something he wrote as instruction?

    How can you love Jesus when you don't know who he was or what he stood for? How can you possibly comprehend him enough to love him completely?

    You're following the much edited, biographical summaries of someone that was around millenia ago and yet you somehow think you understand his message enough to follow it correctly, to love him fully? And then also cast your judgement on those that try and fail? It seems to me that you do not understand that message sufficiently deeply.
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    26 Sep '07 16:08
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Christianity and following Christ aren't the same thing?

    Tell me, how do you go about following Christ when you have never heard him speak, or seen something he wrote as instruction?

    How can you love Jesus when you don't know who he was or what he stood for? How can you possibly comprehend him enough to love him completely?

    You're following the ...[text shortened]... at try and fail? It seems to me that you do not understand that message sufficiently deeply.
    As i have commented before...we all fall short....we can only go by what is presented to us and in the hope that if we follow what is presented to us correctly then we will have been good,not perfect as we can never be perfect but on the right tracks!
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    26 Sep '07 16:10
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    As i have commented before...we all fall short....we can only go by what is presented to us and in the hope that if we follow what is presented to us correctly then we will have been good,not perfect as we can never be perfect but on the right tracks!
    Agreed, I would have thought that this is the only view Christians should feel confident in espousing.
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    26 Sep '07 16:101 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    What people call 'our very nature' or 'human nature' is simply a lack of maturity. From what I can tell, all Jesus asks is for one to mature beyond being a slave to the desires of the ego.
    And instead be a slave to the desires of god? One is not a slave to one's ego, one is set free by understanding and freeing one's ego.
  7. Joined
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    26 Sep '07 16:11
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Agreed, I would have thought that this is the only view Christians should feel confident in espousing.
    I feel very confident in that view... im also pleased you agree...are we getting on now! 🙂
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    26 Sep '07 16:14
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    I feel very confident in that view... im also pleased you agree...are we getting on now! 🙂
    Provided you don't revert to the love everyone like thye're your brother crud and please cut down on the smileys.
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    26 Sep '07 16:15
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Provided you don't revert to the love everyone like thye're your brother crud and please cut down on the smileys.
    Its a deal...
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    26 Sep '07 17:19
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Christianity and following Christ aren't the same thing?

    Tell me, how do you go about following Christ when you have never heard him speak, or seen something he wrote as instruction?

    How can you love Jesus when you don't know who he was or what he stood for? How can you possibly comprehend him enough to love him completely?

    You're following the ...[text shortened]... at try and fail? It seems to me that you do not understand that message sufficiently deeply.
    If you haven't noticed, Christianity is much more about power and money than it is about following the teachings of Jesus. Somehow you seem to have the two bundled together. As a thought experiment, try to separate them.
  11. Joined
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    26 Sep '07 17:20
    Originally posted by Starrman
    And instead be a slave to the desires of god? One is not a slave to one's ego, one is set free by understanding and freeing one's ego.
    Sorry, but it's pretty evident from your posts that you're a slave to your ego. The truth will set you free.
  12. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    26 Sep '07 17:29
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    What people call 'our very nature' or 'human nature' is simply a lack of maturity. From what I can tell, all Jesus asks is for one to mature beyond being a slave to the desires of the ego.
    Yeah. Following one's desires might actually make one happy, and we can't allow that. People might start to think they don't need religion.
  13. Felicific Forest
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    26 Sep '07 17:33
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I recently say a license plate frame that read, "Smile! Jesus Loves You!."

    Over the years, I've known many Christians that take delight in the idea that Jesus loves them. I've known many that love the idea that Jesus loves them.

    If one believed in Jesus, one would follow the teachings of Jesus.
    If one loved Jesus, one would follow the teachings of ...[text shortened]... Jesus. That actually believe and love Jesus enough to follow his teachings.

    Thoughts?
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=77825&page=1
  14. Hmmm . . .
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    26 Sep '07 17:42
    Truly striving and failing are not the issue; I think Starr and JJ are right about that. And, to spin it just a bit: that includes our failures to truly strive. Round and round...

    _______________________________________

    In Mahayana Buddhism there are the four Bodhisattva Vows. There are various translations; but for the moment I like the ones below—

    I. Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to awaken with them all.

    II. Delusions/sufferings are endless; I vow to heal them all.

    III. Dharma gates are boundless; I vow to open them all.

    IV. The Buddha Way is inexhaustible; I vow to embody it all.

    Well, fulfilling these vows is not just difficult; it’s impossible for one being. The best understanding of “vowing” is simply “to dedicate oneself.”

    It’s like a basketball player in a game: she doesn’t dedicate herself to making 50% of the shots she takes; she dedicates herself to making all of them. And when she misses, she shrugs it off and goes on without relinquishing her original “vow”. She doesn’t say: “Oh no, I broke my vow!” and walk off the court.

    St. Benedict had a saying that I think is on point here: “Always we begin again.”

    The Bodhisattva is symbolically (an ideal/archetype) one who declines to enter Nirvana, choosing instead to return again and again to the world of samsara to “save” all beings. Under the translation of the first vow that I use here, “salvation” is a kind of “all for one, and one for all” affair. I say “symbolically” because, from my Zen point of view, such questions as transmigration of souls are immaterial.

    There are all sorts of ways of fulfilling these vows (and “fulfilling” here is not an event, a conclusion—it is just continuing on the path): a college student, by being a dedicated student; a parent, by being a caring parent; a social worker via social work; a conservationist by caring for the environment—etc., etc., etc. One person serves in a soup kitchen; one person teaches; one person plants a tree...

    Dedication is not perfectionism. Perfectionism is a disease that, as often as not, leads to despair and a giving up of doing anything at all. Or, worse, leads one to declaim to everyone else how their way is deficient. “Don’t go into business; go to the street” (or vice versa). “Don’t spend your money on college tuition; feed the poor” (or vice versa). “Don’t build a house; live in a hut” (or vice versa). [I once heard of an investment banker (in a for-profit banking firm), who used his office as a “dharma gate”; who knows how much dharma-good he might have accomplished? Perhaps a great deal more than I have.]

    Don’t ask “what is ‘good enough’?”. Just keep going. Keep shooting baskets. As Shunryu Suzuki roshi said, just “shine one corner of the world.”

    Over and over again,
    turning the dharma wheel...

    ________________________________________

    What I think TOO is getting at is what he sees as an over-emphasis on personal/individual salvationism, an emphasis on me gaining eternal life / having a personal relationship with God in this life. That does not seem to be Jesus’ overriding concern in his teachings. I think TOO’s point has to do with whether or not faith means anything without accepting the command to, “Follow me.” Again, perfection is not the question (one can use one’s imperfection as an excuse not to do anything).

    This also goes to ye olde “faith versus works” arguments. Both can be tainted with the overriding desire for personal salvational gain. Although the faithful may be called upon to do good work, the first refrain heard is often: “Your good works won’t save you.” Different Christians have different views on this as well.

    But if personally “getting saved” and gaining individual eternal life is Jesus’ overriding concern, so be it. I’ll let the Christians argue that out amongst themselves.
  15. Hmmm . . .
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    26 Sep '07 18:00
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Yeah. Following one's desires might actually make one happy, and we can't allow that. People might start to think they don't need religion.
    Never trust an unhappy bodhisattva! 😉

    Your point is well-taken, of course. I used to teach a class to a certain group of folks who thought their dedication to their social concerns (the work they did, with a high rate of frustration and burn-out; work that I also did outside the teaching stint) necessitated being unhappy most of the time—sort of a “puritan”, if I’m happy and enjoying myself, I must not be working hard enough.

    I used to tell them at the beginning of the class: “If you’re not having fun, you’re not doing it right.” Which always elicited a bunch of baffled looks, and pious and very angry rejoinders.

    Then I proceeded to help then learn how to have fun—while hopefully doing their work more effectively. That was one of my jobs; I had fun doing it.

    From a Buddhist perspective, dukkha (all forms of anguish/suffering) is the problem. More suffering is not the solution...
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