Originally posted by Coletti
A thoughtful response. Thank you.
I looked up Euthyphro's Dilemma (always good to learn something new 🙂 ). The arguments are not new to me - but I like knowing who made them also.
It seems his question is which is prior, God or g ...[text shortened]... ble, there is no dilemma. God is prior to good, God defines good.
I'm sure bbar will be making his appearance soon, and I look forward to it.
A couple of quick things first, if you are interested in Euthyphro's Dilemma. I'm guessing from your post that you read Bertrand Russell's version tailored to the xtian god. You probably saw mention of this Russell's work, but Plato is the originally records the dilemma in the short dialogue "Euthyphro." It's a excellent, short read.
The problem that I have with your position (It is one of the two positions first offered by Socrates in the dialogue.) is that it offers no reason to think that good things should be desired over bad things. If you offer any other reason for doing so, then you've gone beyond your position that God defines good arbitrarily because you would be supplying an independent reason for why some things are good and others bad. According to your position as it stands now, the only reason that it is not good to take my neighbors virgin daughter as a slave/concubine is because you think God says not to do this. That it is a bad action is rooted in anything else (e.g. the intense pain that it causes). It just so happens that God doesn't want us to take slaves/concubines (The OT seems to suggest that God makes allowances.).
You give two reasons why the arbitrary nature of good according to your position is not problematic.
1)Good
is based on the one persons wishes - it is God's will.
This isn't so much a justification for arbitrariness, as a restatement of your position. It also contains an unjustified assertion that your god actually exists. If some other god (perhaps even a Yahweh that you do not know) exists and your Yahweh does not, then this first statement is false. Either way 1) does not justify the arbitrary nature of good according to your position.
2) The Christian God is not mutable - so the saying that God could have made something good that he now considers evil is senseless.
I don't think it is senseless. God could do many things and declared many things by omnipotence. It would be senseless according to immutability though for God to actually change the rules he has declared though.
First, I see no reason why immutability gives any reason to think that what God says is good is desirable in any way. At best, it is just the opinion of God, nothing more. Again if you give other reasons why something is good or bad, then you've expanded your position from "God has declared some things good and other things bad. It is arbitrary, but that's okay."
Second, God does seem to make allowances for even the strictest moral rules (murder, rape, theft, etc.). So even if his standards are immutable, they may be so sensitive to circumstance that we cannot tell what is good and bad or when which rules apply.
I would also like to point out that the criticism from my last post still holds. Saying God is good is meaningless. It just says that God does what he does and opines what he opines.
Edit: Oh yeah, Socrates/Plato disagrees with your position. He prefers the position (using Greek view) that the gods love things because they are virtuous, not that things are virtuous because the gods love them. I can't remember why right now. I'd have to pull out the dialogue again.