Why God is not real to you

Originally posted by Captain Strange

And it was first written in Aramaic by hand then translated into Hebrew.
Copied by hand many times then translated into Koine Greek.
Copied by hand many times and translated into Latin.
Copied by hand many times and translated into Elizabethan English.

And your taking it as gospel word for word.

Shurly shome errors will have crept in.

Of course many Bibles are directed on considerations of copyist discrepancies. For example I have a Bible called Rothram's Emphasized Bible.

In the margins it list the sources of variant renderings of thousands of verses. The serious student of textural criticism can read through that English translation and check the sidebar to see if other ancient scribes rendered a passage with substantial differences.

I would ask you Captain.

Here are some major tenets of my faith.

God as the Creator.
Christ as the Son of God.
Christ lived a perfect life.
Christ died a redemptive death for sinners.
Christ rose victoriously from the dead.

Eternal life, eternal redemption, forgiveness and the Holy Spirit is dispensed into the believers in Christ.

Could you site me a passage with variations due copiest errors down the years, which impacts one of these major tenets of the Christian faith ?

Don't tell me about Solomon's 2,000 horses or his 20,000 horses.
I need to see your sample of a really major impacting copiest discrepancy.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] And it was first written in Aramaic by hand then translated into Hebrew.
Copied by hand many times then translated into Koine Greek.
Copied by hand many times and translated into Latin.
Copied by hand many times and translated into Elizabethan English.

And your taking it as gospel word for word.

Shurly shome errors will have crept in. [/quot ...[text shortened]... 000 horses.
I need to see your sample of a really major impacting copiest discrepancy.

Hi Sonship,
That is about as good a rebuttal as I have seen.

Good point well made.

If you start from the top of your head and go down, confessing the known sins of your body parts, that is an excellent way to clear the conscience and release the flow of the Holy Spirit within.

Here is the governing verse by which you begin to confess all known sins.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ( 1 John 1:9)

Now listen. Listen.

The passage says He is FAITHFUL and RIGHTEOUS to forgive.
To forgive, in the name of Jesus Christ, is the RIGHTEOUS thing for God to do.

"Lord God, based on your word you have to forgive me because Christ has died for the cleansing of my sins. Whether you like me or you don't like me, you are BOUND by Your own righteous character and faithfulness to the Son of God to FORGIVE."

This is the ground for your boldness. God is FAITHFUL to the redemptive work of Christ. And God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive. If He does not forgive you because you come based upon the redemptive death of Jesus, He is not righteous. Righteousness is the foundation of the throne of God.

So He is faithful and righteous to cleanse you and forget about your sins.

So you start with the eyes - what you looked upon which you should not have looked upon. Confess your sins.

You proceed with your ears - what you listened to which you should not have listened to. Your conscience convicted you that you should not have listened to that. You confess.

You continue with your mouth - what you spoke which you are aware you should not have spoken.

etc. etc.

You may continue with your hands.
You man continue with your other body parts down to your feet.

You will not cover all the sins you have ever committed because you are unaware of many. But you do agree with God about the ones of which you are aware. You confess and thank God that He is FAITHFUL and RIGHTEOUS to forgive.

I started this thread saying God is not real to some of you because of your sins. When you confess your sins bringing them one by one under the redeeming blood of Jesus - there will be an open way for fellowship and communion with God.

Let's look at the key passage one more time:

" Jehovah hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2)

Your sins have made a separation between you and God.
Your iniquities cause the countenance of God to be hidden from your inner being.

If you have confidence you have no sins? Then you need to read the Gospels about Jesus. You need to let Jesus stand up next to you and let His light shine over you. Then standing next to Jesus Christ you should see that you are indeed in need to confess your sins in His name.

And God is then faithful and righteous to His name, and to cleanse you of all sins. God is eager to come into your life.

Originally posted by sonship
If you start from the top of your head

If you start from the top of your head and go down,
you get lower.
My body parts have no sin since they have no volition.
But I do eat a lot of pasta.

So you start with the eyes - what you looked at that was once dry is now moist (al dente).
You proceed with your ears - what you listened to was the bubbling pot.
You continue with your mouth - eat all that pasta!!!
etc. etc.

You may continue with your hands.
You man continue with your other body parts (yuk)

You will not cover all the sins you have ever committed because you are unaware of many. But you do agree with the FSM about the ones of which you are aware;
having too much garlic bread

You confess and thank the FSM that He is FLYING and ALDENTE to forgive.

I started this thread saying nothing and will continue.


He does not hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2)

WOW

You need to let the FSM stand up next to you and let His light shine over you.

Atheists are creatures denying the existence of their Creator.

Originally posted by sonship
Atheists are creatures denying the existence of their Creator.

Christians are creatures mistakenly believing they were created.

😉

Originally posted by sonship
Atheists are creatures denying the existence of their Creator.

So you claim, but I don't see you providing any evidence or augment to back up your claim. Instead you are here telling us to believe what you tell us in order to believe what you say. I am not inclined to comply. What is worse, the fact that you claim that self delusion is required in order to believe your claims, suggest you yourself believe you are deluded and for some reason seem OK with that (other than your desperate need to have everyone else deluded too).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Christians are creatures mistakenly believing they were created.

😉

We were not created ?

That means that you have always been in existence since eternity then, which you should know is not true.

To argue with God is to argue with the One who gave you the ability to argue at all.

Originally posted by sonship
That means that you have always been in existence since eternity then, which you should know is not true.

False dichotomy. And given the number of times this has been discussed, you should already know that.

Originally posted by twhitehead

I said that Atheists are creatures denying the existence of their Creator.

So you claim, but I don't see you providing any evidence or augment to back up your claim.

Your ability to rationalize is more evidence that you were created in the image of a thinking Being then it is evidence that material on its own power somehow emerged to produce thought.

As far as history goes back we see life and thought producing life and thought in human beings. How far back do we have evidence that non-material and no thinking matter produced thinking beings?

Instead you are here telling us to believe what you tell us in order to believe what you say.

Do you think your atheism is 100% a linear thought process ?
I don't think so. I think you start off with the assumption of there being no God.

IE. We're told to believe that so that we can go on to believe that.

I am not inclined to comply.

That is mostly a matter of you will power.
Rationality is secondary really.

No one can make you "comply".
And this goes, I think, as more evidence that we are created in the image of God Who instilled in His creature man a freedom of will in this matter.

Can you image that a husband that controlled his wife's love by an electrode would be happy with that "forced to comply" love ?

What is worse, the fact that you claim that self delusion ...

("self delusion" ) ... an assertion only and unevidenced.

The delusion is much more probable that you and I were not created in the image of a Divine Life Who bestowed upon us mental ability to think about our origin.

The self delusion is on the atheists' part that lifeless dirt gave rise to thinking.

is required in order to believe your claims,

It is true that in order to draw near to God you must believe that God is. That is true.

"I will not comply" is a self guarantee that that step will never be taken.

suggest you yourself believe you are deluded and for some reason seem OK with that (other than your desperate need to have everyone else deluded too).

I don't deny the fact that leading others to experience God intimately is a joy unsurpassed. Whether I "desperately" need it to know for myself that we know God ? We do have communion and intimate loving fellowship with our Father. Are we desperate that others join us ? Maybe so!

The question is, does the Christian's " desperation " argue that God is not real ?
Of course it does not.
That would be a genetic fallacy,

God is not real to you then for two reasons.

1.) You don't want God to be, period.

2.) You are deluded concerning His love and willingness to remove your real guilt stemming also from your self chosen non-compliance, that there may be no obstacle to fellowship.

I am not sure that with an atheist any argument of any kind can be won without them stealing from a theistic Christian worldview.

Originally posted by twhitehead
False dichotomy. And given the number of times this has been discussed, you should already know that.

False dichotomy. And given the number of times this has been discussed, you should already know that.

You mean the number of times you have abysmally failed to win that point ?

If he means "Christians" were not created - No, Christians were definitely created.
If he means the man was not created - No still, Human beings were created.

Arguing about Who or What created humans, that is another issue. But no such argument has EVER been won here that "uncreated" humans have been around "uncreated" eternally.

The current scientific consensus is that the entire universe was not and then was. So it was created. Argument persists HOW. But it was created. And if the universe than man a creature of the universe was too.

You see, for anything to exist, something must have existed eternally. I've never seen that refuted here by you or anyone else - boast in boredom as you may.

PS. Phyhsicist Lawrence Krauss gives a herculean effort to prove the universe came out of nothing. Yet other physicists and even other atheist physicists point out that his "nothing" is not really nothing.

I have stated that for anything to exist, something must have existed forever eternally.

Twhitehead being a really really smart atheist will now demonstrate that out of nothing something CAN come.

It should be easy for him. He implies its been done so so many times.

Originally posted by sonship
I have stated that for anything to exist, something must have existed forever eternally.

Twhitehead being a really really smart atheist will now demonstrate that out of nothing something CAN come.

It should be easy for him. He implies its been done so so many times.

Why can't the universe have existed forever in a different form?

Originally posted by sonship
I have stated that for anything to exist, something must have existed forever eternally.

Twhitehead being a really really smart atheist will now demonstrate that out of nothing something CAN come.

It should be easy for him. He implies its been done so so many times.

I have stated that for anything to exist, something must have existed forever eternally.

Stating it, does not make it true.

It is not proven that for anything to exist, something must have existed forever.

In fact modern physics suggests that it may well be possible for something to come from nothing,
and that indeed, nothing is unstable and that something will inevitably come from nothing.
And as nothing by definition does not include time, then nothing will become something instantly,
which means that there was never a time where there was nothing and there has thus always been
something, even if that something has only existed for a finite time.

However, even if there is no such thing as absolute nothingness, and that there has always been
something in existence, this by no means implies or requires that that something be sentient,
let alone a god, let alone yours.

That you are too ignorant to understand this, and more, that you are too irrational to understand that
simply because you don't understand something doesn't mean it can't be true, and that you are not
allowed by the rules of rationality to just make up answers to questions to which you don't know the
answer and then just assert that you are correct.... Is your fault, and not twhitehead's.

I thought we had all agreed that quantum fluctuations allowed the universe to spontaneously form from nothing. 🙂

'From the uncertainty principle, we see that empty space isn’t really empty. Inside the vacuum, particles are allowed to pop in and out of existence due to probabilistic quantum fluctuations'