1. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
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    06 Oct '15 14:361 edit
    If God is not real to you, the obstacle is your sins.
    If God is not real to you, there is insulation in you - a barrier.

    The problem is your sins.
    He cannot fellowship with you until you are cleansed from your sins - Justified through coming to Christ for forgiveness.

    The mystery of the Person who is behind all creation and the universe is He is holy, perfect, absolutely pure and cannot fellowship with sin.

    God is not real to you because you need to confess your sins and your need for forgiveness. He doesn't require that you beg. He doesn't require that you grovel or weep or howl. (Though you just may).

    He requires that you BELIEVE that Christ died for you and has risen.

    In this thread I will touch again and again why God is not real to you. And how God CAN become so real because of redemption and justification in Christ.
  2. Joined
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    06 Oct '15 14:441 edit
    Circular reasoning. Sin is directly related to God. I don't believe i have ever sinned, because to sin is to commit a crime against God. I don't believe there exists a God, so I don't believe I have sinned.

    To believe in God one must believe one has sinned, to believe one has sinned, one must believe in God.

    Circular reasoning.

    God is not real to you because you need to confess your sins and your need for forgiveness.

    I must confess to a God I don't believe in, in order to believe in God...

    That's not even reasoning anymore. Reason just flew out the window.

    Of course, God being almighty could easily overcome this barrier and show me he exists. Considering his powers that wouldn't even take any effort on his side.

    So, I sit here waiting................

    and waiting...............

    and........
  3. Standard membersonship
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    06 Oct '15 14:47
    For some it is not easy to admit that though they talk and talk about the God subject - God simply is not real to them.

    The problem of communion with God is the barrier of a man's sins. The sins need first to be confessed and cleansed away in the redeeming blood of Christ.

    Then there is no problem to begin FELLOWSHIP with Daddy - the Heavenly Abba. Then there is sweet fellowship with the Triune God. Jesus become real in your heart.

    You have to begin by agreeing with God.
    He says you are a sinner.
    You argue that you're ok.

    I mean compared to that OTHER guy over there, you're not bad at all. God is not comparing you to the other guy. He is standing you up next to His Son.

    You have to begin to read the New Testament until you get subdued. You come to agree with God, You are a sinner and need forgiveness.

    The circle is drawn around you and only you.
    For the moment everyone else in your life and in the whole world is gone from the circle.

    "Lord Jesus, I now confess. I, Lord ... I am a sinner. I just agree with God. I am ... I am a sinner."

    God is not real to you because you have yet to agree with Him that you are a sinner in need of God's forgiveness. That is a forgiveness which is more than amply available because of the death of Jesus Christ the Son of God, for you ... on your behalf.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    06 Oct '15 14:543 edits
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    In this matter I think some valid circular reasoning is justified because God is the ground of all being. He says "I am the Alpha and the Omega".

    But I am not going to get overly distracted with that argument.

    He is the beginning and the end.
    He is the First and the Last.

    God is not real to you because in your stubborness and your employing philosophical arguments, you will not come to Him for forgiveness.

    But if tonight on some dark alley you were hit in the head and had your wallet stolen, you would not be musing on "circular reasoning". You would be sad and mad about the wrongfulness, the injustice, the iniquity of what someone just did to you.

    You do not live that way , musing on "circular reasoning" to excuse things like this done to you.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    06 Oct '15 15:08
    Call it dogmatic is you must.

    I'm telling you. The reason God is not real to you is because of the need for your sins to be forgiven. He is waiting for you to come and agree with Him.

    He does love you.
    But He who loves you is holy.
    He who loves you is perfection - absolutely morally pure by nature.

    He has a way to deal with the problem of your separation from His Perfect holy Being. It is the redemption of the Son of God.


    God says:

    " Come now and let us reason together, Says Jehovah.

    Though your sins are like scarlet,
    They will be as white as snow;

    Though they are as red as crimson,
    They will be like wool." (Isaiah 1:18)


    Some say "But I know I won't be able to stop."

    God knows that better than you do.
    He has made provision for that too.
    He can free from both the guilt and the power of sin.

    You first have to establish fellowship with God by AGREEING with Him that you do need forgiveness, justification, and redemption in Christ.
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    06 Oct '15 15:28
    Originally posted by sonship
    In this matter I think some valid circular reasoning is justified because God is the ground of all being. He says [b]"I am the Alpha and the Omega".

    But I am not going to get overly distracted with that argument.

    He is the beginning and the end.
    He is the First and the Last.

    God is not real to you because in your stubborness and your empl ...[text shortened]... u do not live that way , musing on "circular reasoning" to excuse things like this done to you.[/b]
    But I am not going to get overly distracted with that argument.

    Totally get that, man. You wouldn't want to let rock solid logic get in the way of believing in fairy tales. Children don't do that. Terrorists don't that. Senile people don't do that. Why should you?

    But if tonight on some dark alley you were hit in the head and had your wallet stolen, you would not be musing on "circular reasoning". You would be sad and mad about the wrongfulness, the injustice, the iniquity of what someone just did to you.

    This is because there is no circular reasoning going on there. One does not hit someone in the head over a wallet. Period.

    "Believe you've committed a crime against God, because that way you can believe in God, so you can see you've committed a crime against God, because..." is applying an absurd lack of logic in order to convince yourself of why it's correct to believe in Bearded Fairytale Man.
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    06 Oct '15 15:30
    Should also say that every time you say "God said this or that" it's actually some guy that said that God said this or that.

    People like you don't believe in God. You believe in other people having told you about God.
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    06 Oct '15 15:35
    valid circular reasoning is justified

    Also, calling a reasoning "valid" and then saying it's "justified" is silly.

    "Judge, me murdering this guy was totally valid to me. And that justifies it."

    "Well, good sir, can't see any fault in that line of thinking. Off you go then, have a good day."
  9. Mar-a-Lago
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    06 Oct '15 18:46
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Should also say that every time you say "God said this or that" it's actually some guy that said that God said this or that.

    People like you don't believe in God. You believe in other people having told you about God.
    Spot on Ratty
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    06 Oct '15 22:22
    Originally posted by sonship
    Call it dogmatic is you must.

    I'm telling you. The reason God is not real to you is because of the need for your sins to be forgiven. He is waiting for you to come and agree with Him.

    He does love you.
    But He who loves you is holy.
    He who loves you is perfection - absolutely morally pure by nature.

    He has a way to deal with the problem of y ...[text shortened]... AGREEING with Him that you do need forgiveness, justification, and redemption in Christ.
    No, *He* does not want you to agree with him - You are to make up your own mind.

    Work out your own salvation with diligence.
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    07 Oct '15 06:23
    Originally posted by Captain Strange
    Spot on Ratty
    Thanks, capt'n.
  12. Joined
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    07 Oct '15 07:24
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Thanks, capt'n.
    Someone thumbed down me thanking the capt'n.

    🙄🙄🙄🙄😵😵😵😵😵😵😀😀😀😀😀

    Is that you, RJHinds?
  13. Standard membersonship
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    07 Oct '15 12:22
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    [b] But I am not going to get overly distracted with that argument.

    Totally get that, man. You wouldn't want to let rock solid logic get in the way of believing in fairy tales. Children don't do that. Terrorists don't that. Senile people don't do that. Why should you?

    But if tonight on some dark alley you were hit in the head and had your ...[text shortened]... of logic in order to convince yourself of why it's correct to believe in Bearded Fairytale Man.
    Totally get that, man. You wouldn't want to let rock solid logic get in the way of believing in fairy tales. Children don't do that. Terrorists don't that. Senile people don't do that. Why should you?


    I would want to save some people time.
    God is not real to the sinner because of real guilt about real wrongs REALLY done.

    Your sins have made a separation between you and God who loves you. You thought He wasn't there? You thought He didn't see? You thought He didn't hear or notice or record or remember anything about your life ?

    Like everybody else:
    Not only the action He saw. Even the rational mind scheming and logically planning your sin was as clear as glass.

    Nothing is hidden from the eyes of God, nothing either of what was done TO you or what was done BY you. We all are in need of forgiveness.

    Wanting God to not exist isn't the answer. Removing of the real insulation by His cleansing allows fellowship, not just objective knowledge but real fellowship with God. He has to remove the guilt. You have to come and agree to have it removed.




    This is because there is no circular reasoning going on there. One does not hit someone in the head over a wallet. Period.


    That of course is not true.
    But you have been cheated probably.
    It was stealing though less violent.
    And you yourself have cheated others most likely.

    Whether violently or not the stain of stealing in upon the character. And the sins of men are an obstacle to having God be real in their hearts. Only God can remove the stain. And He has made provision for that before you were born because He loves you.

    "Believe you've committed a crime against God,


    The sinner commits crimes against his fellow man. Ultimately all sin is against God. That is why He says:

    Judgement is Mine ... I will repay.

    God is the last balancing one of the scales of justice.


    because that way you can believe in God, so you can see you've committed a crime against God,


    You were created with a breaking system called a conscience.
    Your conscience told you it was wrong.
    The ultimate balancing one of the scales of justice is the Creator and Governor who installed that conscience within man.

    He became sin on the cross for us that we could be justified.
    He wants us to accept the offer a Substitute.
    But He cannot, cannot fail to balance the scales.
    He must balance the scales of justice.

    His ultimate love and His ultimate righteous judgment meet together on the cross of the Son of God.


    because..." is applying an absurd lack of logic in order to convince yourself of why it's correct to believe in Bearded Fairytale Man.


    You're adding special effects to force it to seem more absurd.

    If you would think about it a bit you would see that you yourself are caught in circular reasoning. Bascially it comes down to something like -

    " I am not sinful because I am not sinful because I am not sinful."

    But you see your God created conscience will not let you go.
    I'll be back latter to discuss.

    But when forgiveness is given in our accepting this substitution of Christ dying for us, God becomes real as a moment by moment enjoyment.
  14. Standard memberRemoved
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    07 Oct '15 13:27
    This is why Jesus said man does not come to him...
    John 3:19-21
    And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
    NKJV


    The message...
    John 3:19-21

    19 "This is the crisis we're in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. 20 Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won't come near it, fearing a painful exposure. 21 But anyone working and living in truth and reality welcomes God-light so the work can be seen for the God-work it is."
    (from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)
  15. Mar-a-Lago
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    07 Oct '15 13:57
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Should also say that every time you say "God said this or that" it's actually some guy that said that God said this or that.

    People like you don't believe in God. You believe in other people having told you about God.
    And it was first written in Aramaic by hand then translated into Hebrew.
    Copied by hand many times then translated into Koine Greek.
    Copied by hand many times and translated into Latin.
    Copied by hand many times and translated into Elizabethan English.

    And your taking it as gospel word for word.

    Shurly shome errors will have crept in.
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