Originally posted by scottishinnz
No, he's pointing out that the questions we cannot answer as scientists, you are equally unable to answer as god botherers.

You should meet Howardgee - I think you two would make good friends. He is also fond of that derogatory term.

Originally posted by Will Everitt
Good book. Although i have problems considering the event horizon of black holes still, i like the chapter on reativity of time. Are you finding it hard reading? I didn't but i guess some people did as they have made a shorter version.

It's certainly not a Clive Cussler novel, but enthralling nonetheless.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well,

We've got reptiles in one strata, a reptile with teeth, feathers a santa hat and beard (it's Xmas day here - i couldn't resist) in the next strata then early 'birds' within the next strata. Doesn't get all that much more convincing. (p.s. the strata need not be all from the same place - we can ID (that is Identify, not Intelligent Desi ...[text shortened]... om different places using isotopic analysis, as well as looking at what other fossils are there.

Yeah, yeah - it all makes sense if you are a believer. Without any preconvieved ideas, this is still illogical.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]...the Big-Question unanswered by the Big-Bang: who/what was the cause for such a cataclysmic event?


What about the Big-Question unanswered by creationists who think they know the cause of the Big Bang? Who/what was the cause for this God being who supposedly was the cause of the universe?

Also -- with such a huge reproduction rate, ...[text shortened]... uantify 'complexity' such that you can determine if one organism is more complex than another?

[/b][/b]What about the Big-Question unanswered by creationists who think they know the cause of the Big Bang? Who/what was the cause for this God being who supposedly was the cause of the universe?

You incorrectly assume that God needs a beginning. The big bang was the beginning of time, space and matter, hence it needed a cause.

Are you intending to mischaracterize evolutionary theory or are you just ignorant?

So you are telling me that it has stopped?

How does one quantify 'complexity' such that you can determine if one organism is more complex than another?

I'm sure you biologists have great criteria - number of cells, intelligence of cerebral cortex etc, etc.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No, he's pointing out that the questions we cannot answer as scientists, you are equally unable to answer as god botherers.

And therein rubs the lie.
Ironically, the fruit of the forbidden tree was not knowledge, but, rather, the knowledge of good and evil. From the orgiastic clamoring heard from the science botherers, one would think knowledge itself was the end-all/be-all.
A little secret for the intellectually insecure: you don't have to know everything, and you never, ever will. Doesn't mean you should stop stretching and trying to find out more. It does mean we shouldn't be 'majoring in the minors,' however.

Let's say we--- tomorrow--- discover definitvely the exact time, location and means of the origins of the universe. What a momentous day of discovery that would be (yawn). In the words of my high school football coach, "BFD."

THEN what would the science botherers spend their time on? Never-ending Gobstoppers?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Who/what was the cause for this God being who supposedly was the cause of the universe?
So, you are agreeing that it comes down to faith?[/b]

I don't use the word 'faith' as I find it extremely ambiguous and unclear. You'd need to clarify what you mean by the word before I can answer.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I don't use the word 'faith' as I find it extremely ambiguous and unclear. You'd need to clarify what you mean by the word before I can answer.

I like the biblical definition, which essentially says it is hope or confidence in things not yet shown or revealed.

Originally posted by Halitose
[/b]What about the Big-Question unanswered by creationists who think they know the cause of the Big Bang? Who/what was the cause for this God being who supposedly was the cause of the universe?

You incorrectly assume that God needs a beginning. The big bang was the beginning of time, space and matter, hence it needed a cause.

Are you in ...[text shortened]... you biologists have great criteria - number of cells, intelligence of cerebral cortex etc, etc.

The big bang was the beginning of time, space and matter, hence it needed a cause.

Just to clarify - you are implying the common claim that 'all things that had a beginning needed to have a cause' right?

I am not a physicist and I've never studied in much depth the claim I described above. If something has a 'beginning' then doesn't that imply there was a time in which it didn't exist? Yet how can there be a time in which time didn't exist? That makes no sense.

Anyway, I'll accept that the time, space and matter had a beginning, and that there must have been a cause for it. What I am surprised by is that you're so confident you know what that cause is! I just accept that I don't know. As there is no way for me to know, the odds of any one religious sect being correct about the beginning of the universe approach zero - especially when you take into account all of the claims many or most religions make which are inconsistent with the scientific communties' educated guesses.

So you are telling me that it has stopped?

No. I am telling you that according to evolutionary theory, organisms are still parts of all groups they descended from. The descendents of E. coli would be in the E. coli group of organisms; they'd also be in enterobacteriaceae, and enterobacteriales, and gamma proteobacteria, and proteobacteria, and eubacteria.

It looks like ignorance in your case.

I'm sure you biologists have great criteria - number of cells, intelligence of cerebral cortex etc, etc

You're letting me define your term? That's odd. I'll define 'a bacterium' for you first. 'A bacterium' is defined as the least complex bacterium in existence. Complexity will be defined as the number of chromosomes the organism has.

As to "observed" speciation, has this ever led to anything more complex than a bacterium?

Yes, observed speciation has led to something more complex than a bacterium.

While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I like the biblical definition, which essentially says [faith] is hope or confidence in things not yet shown or revealed.

So, you are agreeing that it comes down to faith?

'It' being the explanation of the cause of the universe that one believes? I do not have any hope or confidence in any explanation of the cause of the origin of the universe; hence, I have no faith about it. Now, what is showing or relieving? If a scientist shows me his hypothesis about the origin of the universe and the evidence supporting it, has it been shown or revealed to me? If I dream a particular explanation, has it been showed or revealed to me?

Originally posted by Halitose
Yeah, yeah - it all makes sense if you are a believer. Without any preconvieved ideas, this is still illogical.

not at all. If you saw a bird flying in the sky and one on the ground would you not assume that birds can take off? We utilise our ability to deduce logical progression everyday.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung

I do not have any hope or confidence in any explanation of the cause of the origin of the universe; hence, I have no faith about it.
In that situation, your confidence is in your hope that it doesn't matter, that nothing critical hinges on your belief about the same.

Wherever once places ones confidence is their faith, their hope. Most people's faith is ill-placed, and not objectively considered. However, as has been posited here a number of times, faith is applied to many aspects of life, not the supernatural exclusively.

For instance, there are some who determine to live (by their standards) good lives, just in case there ever comes a reckoning, in the hope that their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds. They have nothing to do with any gods or God, but nonetheless live exemplary lives toward all around them. Their hope in their good works is for not; though they had faith, it was in the wrong system.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]I do not have any hope or confidence in any explanation of the cause of the origin of the universe; hence, I have no faith about it.
In that situation, your confidence is in your hope that it doesn't matter, that nothing critical hinges on your belief about the same.

Wherever once places ones confidence is their faith, their hope. Most people ...[text shortened]... . Their hope in their good works is for not; though they had faith, it was in the wrong system.[/b]

your confidence is in your hope that it doesn't matter, that nothing critical hinges on your belief about the same.

I don't hope that. It almost never crosses my mind. If something critical to me does hinge on my beliefs, I have no way of knowing that nor do I have any way of knowing what belief will have what consequences. Anyway, regardless of the consequences of belief, you can't change your beliefs simply because you want to without brainwashing yourself.

Do you have confidence in your hope that there are no consequences to what you believe regarding how many grains of sand there are in France?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
And therein rubs the lie.
Ironically, the fruit of the forbidden tree was not knowledge, but, rather, the knowledge of good and evil. From the orgiastic clamoring heard from the science botherers, one would think knowledge itself was the end-all/be-all.
A little secret for the intellectually insecure: you don't have to know everything, and you never, e ...[text shortened]... "BFD."

THEN what would the science botherers spend their time on? Never-ending Gobstoppers?

I do not claim to know everything - I never have. I know that science doesn't yet have all the answers, but it provides a means of finding them out.

If we found out the exact time, location and means of the origins of the universe then we would be working upon something else. How can I possibly say what since it is very very unlikely that we'll ever come to that point. BFD? Man, your high school gym teacher was such a philosophical giant. I do wonder what his thoughts on world politics are...

Originally posted by scottishinnz

then we would be working upon something else.
The point was, why such a concentration on the topic in the first place? Aren't there more pressing matters, in the here and now?

Man, your high school gym teacher was such a philosophical giant.
Back in the day, the coaches had to carry a curriculum load as well. Hard to fathom, but one of his classes was psychology. On the first day of the class, we were greeted with the following saying on the chalkboard: Nothing is always.
Bastion of ballast that I was, the entire class was spent doing mental gymnastics, to the old man's seething chagrin.
Laughing last, the coach made sure I was in the shape of my life that week in practice. God, I miss him.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]then we would be working upon something else.
The point was, why such a concentration on the topic in the first place? Aren't there more pressing matters, in the here and now?

Man, your high school gym teacher was such a philosophical giant.
Back in the day, the coaches had to carry a curriculum load as well. Hard to fathom, but one ...[text shortened]... last, the coach made sure I was in the shape of my life that week in practice. God, I miss him.[/b]

WHy the concentration on the topic?

I think science tries to understand as much as possible, about as many topics as possible. Bearing in mind that humans are such fragile creatures, with such a short lifespan, that an understanding of who we are and where we come from is of utmost importance. That's why we study it, to understand who we are.

It sounds like you have fond memories of your high school gym teacher - I am sorry to hear of his passing. We all have mentors who can make us perform better than we ever thought we could. For me, in Karate, mine is a Japanese guy who speaks no English called Goshima-sensei. He has a quiet way about him, and despite the language barrier I learned more from him in 5 weeks than I learned in 5 years of training in britain!