Originally posted by josephwIs that so? Did you always exist? Did you have a beginning? Was there a cause for your existence? Do you think the universe exists without a cause?
[b]"The fact that the universe exists is evidence only of the existence of the universe."
Is that so? Did you always exist? Did you have a beginning? Was there a cause for your existence? Do you think the universe exists without a cause?[/b]
These points do not follow from mine. I fail to see the relevance of my personal existence and beginning to this discussion. And simply because you are unable to comprehend the possibility that the universe came into existence without recourse to magic does not mean that it did not. As a species we have yet to achieve a complete understanding of the fabric of the universe, let alone it's origin, but this hardly implies that such a thing is beyond our grasp.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatIt's not beyond my grasp. The universe and all that exists was created by God.
[b]Is that so? Did you always exist? Did you have a beginning? Was there a cause for your existence? Do you think the universe exists without a cause?
These points do not follow from mine. I fail to see the relevance of my personal existence and beginning to this discussion. And simply because you are unable to comprehend the possibility tha ...[text shortened]... universe, let alone it's origin, but this hardly implies that such a thing is beyond our grasp.[/b]
Unlike you and those that think the way you do I am quite certain of this truth.
Originally posted by josephwI have not been arguing in support of my beliefs. I have not claimed that I know how the universe came into being, or the true nature thereof. I fully accept the possibility of a creator, I merely pointed out that this was, in my opinion and based on our current scientific insight into the universe, not necessary in order for said universe to exist.
And neither does your stated beliefs make them factual.
What makes a thing factual is objective truth.
Originally posted by FabianFnasGod is there just waiting for you to tell the truth.
I don't need any god, and certainly not the christian god.
If your god needs me, she has to tell me. She doesn't. She is silent. Because she isn't there.
...and you know it.
But because you insist on believing a lie He can't work with you.
Look at yourself. What do you know? Next to nothing. That truth is too hard for you to face. So you believe the easy thing. A lie. You are spiritually lazy because you won't face the truth about your miserable condition.
It's not about me Fab. It's what the Bible says. And because you are too spiritually lazy to face the truth about your miserable condition you kick and scream like a child who can't have his way. Well, the truth won't go away. And neither will God. He will keep hammering on you till you break. Because He loves you.
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Originally posted by josephw...[Sh]e will keep hammering on you till you break. Because [Sh]e loves you.
God is there just waiting for you to tell the truth.
But because you insist on believing a lie He can't work with you.
Look at yourself. What do you know? Next to nothing. That truth is too hard for you to face. So you believe the easy thing. A lie. You are spiritually lazy because you won't face the truth about your miserable condition.
It's not And neither will God. He will keep hammering on you till you break. Because He loves you.
Your god needs to get a better hammer than the pound-shop tat She's using right now...it isn't doing the job!
Originally posted by josephwThen why is she so quiet? Why doesn't she tell me about her presence? Toothferrie doesn't say anything either, and we know bout of us why.
God is there just waiting for you to tell the truth.
But because you insist on believing a lie He can't work with you.
Look at yourself. What do you know? Next to nothing. That truth is too hard for you to face. So you believe the easy thing. A lie. You are spiritually lazy because you won't face the truth about your miserable condition.
It's not ...[text shortened]... And neither will God. He will keep hammering on you till you break. Because He loves you.
Please, don't whow any disrespect of my opinions in the matter, if you want my respect of your opinion. Don't lower yourself to insults. Keep this debate clean. You're not vishvahetu, he doesn'nt know better, I think you do in your heart.
You can believe what you find the truth. I hope that you give me the same right.
Proverbs 2:4-5 (New American Standard Bible)
4 If you seek her as (A)silver
And search for her as for (B)hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the (C)fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God.
If one does not seek out the knowing of God, then you will never gain the wisdom of God. Your wisdom will only be of an earthly man made variety which is from a very limited source.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasI admit I sometimes use sarcasm. But only in a context that I find humorous.
Then why is she so quiet? Why doesn't she tell me about her presence? Toothferrie doesn't say anything either, and we know bout of us why.
Please, don't whow any disrespect of my opinions in the matter, if you want my respect of your opinion. Don't lower yourself to insults. Keep this debate clean. You're not vishvahetu, he doesn'nt know better, I thin ...[text shortened]... heart.
You can believe what you find the truth. I hope that you give me the same right.
I think I once said something that was borderline name calling.
But I think my big sin in this forum is just being plain stupid.
I most definitely afford you the right to believe and say whatever is on your mind without fear that I would disrespect that right.
God isn't being so quiet. It's just that we must come to Him on His terms. After all, He is God. It's not so difficult as you think to believe. The hard part is not believing the lie that says "go your own way". Hearing the voice of God is as easy as reading the Bible. The hard part is facing it's truth. The truth is we are sinners. We must come to God on His terms.
You gotta look inside. It's not a pretty picture. That's why we don't look. We look in every other direction. If you have a child then you know how it is. When they are caught doing something they know is wrong, and when confronted with the truth, they look away, afraid to look you in the eye. It's guilt. We don't want to face our guilt.
Hey, would you rather talk to taco bell? lol
Originally posted by josephwHi Joe,
I admit I sometimes use sarcasm. But only in a context that I find humorous.
I think I once said something that was borderline name calling.
But I think my big sin in this forum is just being plain stupid.
I most definitely afford you the right to believe and say whatever is on your mind without fear that I would disrespect that right.
God isn ...[text shortened]... t. We don't want to face our guilt.
Hey, would you rather talk to taco bell? lol
missed the post and I may be reiterating previous posters but I'll my two cents.
I'm a teacher at a Catholic secondary school here in Australia. (Yes, I know, bizarre - atheist teaches catholics - but it's really not an issue, certainly not here in Oz.)
Anyway, each week during a staff briefing we have a short reflection or prayer - this morning's was from Edith Stein, a German nun and saint, who is a patron of one of the school's Houses. The prayer - and I'm really paraphrasing it here - was about how Edith believed that every aspect of her life was preordained and preplanned by God. She viewed this as a good thing, and woke with relish every morning to see what God's plan was for her that day.
This view of the world - that it is controlled and planned by some all powerful overseer - is one of the main reasons for my atheism. I find it abhorrent that some creature who is praised for it's loving nature - ie. God - could not only allow the disease and death and destruction that we find throughout our world, but actually plan for it. I guess it's my own little reworking of the problem of evil.
Anyway, just thought I might add this to your thread.
By the way, to repeat something I've said before, there is no proof or evidence that I or anyone else could ever come up with that would definitively prove or disprove a god's existence - nor could you do the opposite. In the end, we have to rely on our beliefs ...