Why There Is No God

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
[b]Is that so? Did you always exist? Did you have a beginning? Was there a cause for your existence? Do you think the universe exists without a cause?

These points do not follow from mine. I fail to see the relevance of my personal existence and beginning to this discussion. And simply because you are unable to comprehend the possibility tha ...[text shortened]... universe, let alone it's origin, but this hardly implies that such a thing is beyond our grasp.[/b]

we (people) call what we do not understand "magic". Just because you cannot comprehend the idea of an originator, creator, or purposeful design (or how the creator accomplished it) does not make it magic, it makes it unknown.

Originally posted by duecer
we (people) call what we do not understand "magic". Just because you cannot comprehend the idea of an originator, creator, or purposeful design (or how the creator accomplished it) does not make it magic, it makes it unknown.

Yes, but if it operates outside the natural laws and processes of this universe then it would have to be something more than just 'unknown',wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by josephw
I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God.

Let's take it slow and easy.

Well I'm a "paradoxian" so I could come at this from either angle. God or no God. Or even god or no god.
I've enjoyed the responses here, so for that I thak you , josephw, however who cares? Obviously you do. Why do you need to validate this creator business?

We are god, or part of it anyway, and we can realize this in a more conciouss way. This is more important to me than a yes or no type scenario. That just leads to division and we have plenty of history to show us where division leads.

Originally posted by duecer
we (people) call what we do not understand "magic". Just because you cannot comprehend the idea of an originator, creator, or purposeful design (or how the creator accomplished it) does not make it magic, it makes it unknown.

You may do. Those of us who use the word in it's defined meaning understand 'magic' to be acts which invoke or involve supernatural forces. An infinite, all powerful creator, the idea of which really isn't that difficult to grasp, would, by definition, make use of supernatural abilities, otherwise known as magic. Or are you arguing that god's abilities are not supernatural?

Originally posted by amannion
Hi Joe,
missed the post and I may be reiterating previous posters but I'll my two cents.
I'm a teacher at a Catholic secondary school here in Australia. (Yes, I know, bizarre - atheist teaches catholics - but it's really not an issue, certainly not here in Oz.)
Anyway, each week during a staff briefing we have a short reflection or prayer - this morning' ...[text shortened]... tence - nor could you do the opposite. In the end, we have to rely on our beliefs ...

I'm glad I caught this before I signed off for the day. It's always a pleasure to swap lashes with you amannion. Your post is a good example of what I was looking for.

I don't believe as the Catholics do. It is unfortunate that you need to be exposed to that kind of stuff.

I don't believe that God has preplanned our day, or causes disease and such.

I don't know all about it, nor do I understand it fully, but there is some kind of interface between God's sovereign will and man's free will. God does not violate our free will nor is His will changed by anything we do.

We chose our daily activities, how, when, where, and what. But God is not absent from the process either.

But as to your point. If there is a God, and we live in a world controlled by Satan, and this whole thing is being played out on this stage, and some people have caused others to discount the truth by their irrational beliefs, then I understand why you would opt out of believing. It happens everyday.

And as to your assertion that nothing can be proved either way because there is no evidence; Will you please at least consider the existence of all that exists as evidence for a creator?

If we could just boil this down to the lowest common denominator. All that exists; Is it just here without a cause?

Originally posted by josephw
I'm glad I caught this before I signed off for the day. It's always a pleasure to swap lashes with you amannion. Your post is a good example of what I was looking for.

I don't believe as the Catholics do. It is unfortunate that you need to be exposed to that kind of stuff.

I don't believe that God has preplanned our day, or causes disease and such.

...[text shortened]... down to the lowest common denominator. All that exists; Is it just here without a cause?

I can't see how that is evidence? Simply saying that stuff exists and therefore it was created is not logical or terribly rational.

As for the cause or no cause, what's the difference? If you're right, the universe has a creator. What is the cause of this creator? If I'm right, the universe has no creator. What is the cause of this universe?
We both end up stumped at the same point, just with a different focus on what stumps us.

As for the other stuff, I was merely using the Edith Stein example as an interesting case in point - my position doesn't rest on a Catholic, or any other sort of denominational basis. (I was an atheist long before I started working here.)
Whether or not you god pre-plans everything is not relevant. The fact is, that as an all powerful, supernatural being, it could pre-plan everything. So either it does, and my points remains as before, or it doesn't and the question becomes why it would allow such misery, such evil?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
You may do. Those of us who use the word in it's defined meaning understand 'magic' to be acts which invoke or involve supernatural forces. An infinite, all powerful creator, the idea of which really isn't that difficult to grasp, would, by definition, make use of supernatural abilities, otherwise known as magic. Or are you arguing that god's abilities are not supernatural?

Who said that God works outside natural law? what you may call supernatural, I prefer to think of as arts and sciences we have yet to discover and understand.

Originally posted by duecer
Who said that God works outside natural law? what you may call supernatural, I prefer to think of as arts and sciences we have yet to discover and understand.

Good thought. It could be for God to create matter from nothing, he no doubt did things we will never understand and worked outside the laws that we do know. The Bible gives much reason to think there is nothiong he can't do....Except lie.

Originally posted by galveston75
Good thought. It could be for God to create matter from nothing, he no doubt did things we will never understand and worked outside the laws that we do know. The Bible gives much reason to think there is nothiong he can't do....Except lie.

The no lying god is one of my biggest contentions. How do you know this is true? (note: a liar that says it cannot lie induces no paradox)

Originally posted by Agerg
The no lying god is one of my biggest contentions. How do you know this is true? (note: a liar that says it cannot lie induces no paradox)

Can you prove he's lied? See it goes both ways but without knowing God you would never know. I do know he's never lied as everything he has said in the Bible thru prophecy has come thru except for the few prophecies that will come true in the future that are supposed to come true in the future.

Originally posted by josephw
I admit I sometimes use sarcasm. But only in a context that I find humorous.

I think I once said something that was borderline name calling.

But I think my big sin in this forum is just being plain stupid.

I most definitely afford you the right to believe and say whatever is on your mind without fear that I would disrespect that right.


God isn ...[text shortened]... t. We don't want to face our guilt.


Hey, would you rather talk to taco bell? lol

And this is your religion, and there are other religions who claim the to have the truth with the same arguments that you have. Who is right? You or them? The answer depends upon whom you ask. If you ask me: Everyone, and noone. Every religion has their truths. I don't have any religion (with a name) so I don't have any religious truth, I am neutral in that respect.

An insult is not lesser insultive if you call it sarcasm. It is still instultive. And it is even more so if you call me being without humour not aproving of your humour.
Example: Compare "You are stupid!" with [sarcasm]"You are stupid!"[/sarcasm] The same insultive, no?
So quit sarcasm, quit insults. Give respect and you will be given respect. If not, then you will have a war neither you nor I like.

Now, can we have a debate?

Originally posted by josephw
I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God.

Let's take it slow and easy.

A number of people have already given the answer which is I believe the true reason why the majority of us atheists do not believe in any God ie there are no compelling reasons to believe God exists. But you don't seem to understand this argument or accept it as valid.

It might help you if you ask yourself why you don't believe in fairies.
Do you:
1. Believe they violate the laws of physics? If so, this should not be a problem for you as you believe in the supernatural anyway.
2. Believe their definition is self contradictory? Perhaps you have the wrong definition?
3. Have no compelling reason to believe they exists?
4. Other?

I have a much stronger reason for not believing particular versions of God exist ie they are illogical. But that obviously doesn't rule out all possible creators.

I must add that the 'no compelling reason' for fantastical creatures or entities is such a strong argument that the majority of us (including you I am sure) would bet our lives on it eg both you and I would probably gladly bet our lives that dragons do not exist (where dragons are the fire breathing, talking, winged monsters of legend).

Originally posted by josephw
To tell you the truth I'm not sure what you mean.

What do you mean "in that case"? How is it "forced"?

I mean you cannot cut through the point singularity, you are obliged to stop right at that unsurpassable veil. You simply don't know -nobody does for the time being. But, instead of admitting that you don't know, you invented a so called "creator". This invention of yours is a product of your ignorance, for the answer to the primal "Why?" is that there is no "Because".

How and by which means did you came to know in person that the existence of the "creator" is a fact?
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
This invention of yours is a product of your ignorance, for the answer to the primal "Why?" is that there is no "Because".

Brute facts are a logical necessity. Even a theist must assume some brute facts (the existence of God could be one, and some of his various attributes would be others).
Thus any argument that relies on the claim that there is always a why is doomed to failure. It is however still a very popular argument because people for some reason think that one or two steps down the "why - because" trail they have solved the problem when in reality they have merely hidden it in greater complexity.
A very large part of theism consists of hiding these "why - because" problems rather than answering them.
Why does the universe exist?
Why is there evil?