Why would Abraham ...

@Suzianne

Eladar is correct that this thread continues, tangentially, from a previous one. However, you are correct that I never supposed or said that Abraham would have known about Paul. That would be anachronistic, obviously.

My question concerns a sort of hierarchy of authority, but not a chronology of authority, involving God, angels, apostles, and Paul.

In Galatians, Paul claims to be both an apostle, and to have a higher authority even than angels. This is puzzling. Someone should think about this.

Furthermore, I am not convinced by the idea that angels' authority is equivalent to God speaking directly to man. There is a practical problem, as I see it, for a man who finds himself addressed by an angel, or what he takes to be an angel (viz. Joseph Smith), given the previous case of a fallen angel who led mankind astray. How is mortal man to distinguish angels from fallen angels? I don't accept the claim, made by some posters here, that an angel talking to man simply is God talking to man. There is very definitely a hierarchy in heaven; this is well-documented. I'll search out a link, if you insist.

You asked why a fallen angel would not tell Abraham to kill his son, to defeat the prophecy that Abraham's seed would be propagated through Isaac. My idea was of a more general nature, that a fallen angel would tempt Abraham to disobey God's command, whatever that command was, as Satan tempted Eve to disobey (whatever the command was). God gave a direct command, not to eat the fruit of a certain tree in the Garden, and a fallen angel tempted Eve to do it. As I see it, the issue is not "which particular tree was forbidden", but "disobedience in general."

And now we are discussing a prima facie similar case: God has told Abraham in direct speech to kill his son, but an angel appears and tells Abraham to disobey that command. As I see it, the issue is obedience/disobedience, not the particulars of how Abraham's lineage will be propagated through Isaac (since God could resurrect a killed Isaac).

How is Abraham to know that this is not a fallen angel, telling Abraham to do what Abraham obviously wants to do (namely not to kill his son) against what God previously told him to do?

Why should Abraham think that an angel can countermand what God said before? I don't really expect a definitive answer to the question. I just want people to think about it. KellyJay said he'd never thought about this before, but now he has; and even if thinking about it does not ultimately change his opinion about the story of Abraham and Isaac, his opinion will now be better informed, having thought about it.

@moonbus

Then you simply do not understand the concept of listening to the message.

Nor do I think you understand that demons and satan were angels so look like angels.

@sonship said
@galveston75

The archangel, Michael, is the chief angel in terms of power and authority. The Scriptures clearly indicate that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ.​—1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 9.

No it doesn't Galveston. Both your verses there are forced shoe-ins of highly dubious stretching.

The most important mission of the Jehovah's Witnesse ...[text shortened]... Jehovah God incarnated.

Excuse me for the side note to this discussion on Abraham's obedience.

No apology needed for side notes. The issue is complex, one thing leads to another, and the discussion branches out.

@eladar said
@moonbus

Then you simply do not understand the concept of listening to the message.

Nor do I think you understand that demons and satan were angels so look like angels.

Do you think the issue simply resolves to what they look like, be they demons or be they angels?

@moonbus

For you and people like you , yes.

@moonbus said
@Suzianne

Eladar is correct that this thread continues, tangentially, from a previous one. However, you are correct that I never supposed or said that Abraham would have known about Paul. That would be anachronistic, obviously.

My question concerns a sort of hierarchy of authority, but not a chronology of authority, involving God, angels, apostles, and Pau ...[text shortened]... ut the story of Abraham and Isaac, his opinion will now be better informed, having thought about it.

You’re making a debate out of nothing. I answered you above.

1 Corinthians 6

Do you not know that we will judge angels?


You do not understand, there is no hierarchy, other than God then all others. Angels are not inherently above humans.

Now those humans and angels who are with the Lord are above those humans and angels who reject the Lord.

@moonbus said
@Suzianne

Eladar is correct that this thread continues, tangentially, from a previous one. However, you are correct that I never supposed or said that Abraham would have known about Paul. That would be anachronistic, obviously.

My question concerns a sort of hierarchy of authority, but not a chronology of authority, involving God, angels, apostles, and Pau ...[text shortened]... ut the story of Abraham and Isaac, his opinion will now be better informed, having thought about it.

But the angel that appeared the "second time" was not just "an angel". It was "the angel of the Lord". This is widely believed to be a manifestation of God himself. And Abraham was well aware who it was.

I'm at work, or I'd write more. I'll come back to this.

Galveston, the gentleman poster whose civility I appreciate, is however misled by the JW teaching he has believed and is teaching.

The archangel, Michael, is the chief angel in terms of power and authority. The Scriptures clearly indicate that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ.​—1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 9.

The JWs are reading something INTO 1 Thessalonians which is not there.

"Because the Lord Himself, with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, wil descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first." (1 Thess. 5:16)

1.) It simple says " ... the Lord Himself ..., with the voice of an archangel ... . It does not say "... the Lord Himself [WITH HIS VOICE BEING] ... the voice of an archangel."

2.) There is no reason why the Lord Jesus Himself cannot do something ACCOMPANIED by the voice of an archangel. For example in Revelation 14:14-16.

" ... and on the cloud One like the Son of Man [Christ] sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. (v.14)

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe. (v.15)

And He who sat on the cloud [Christ - the Son of Man] thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (v.16)

As here so in 1 Thess. 5:16 , Christ's action is accompanied by an angelic voice, not His own voice, speaking something.

Galveston says -

The archangel, Michael, is the chief angel in terms of power and authority.

But a major point of Jude 9 is that Michael was lower in rank than Satan with whom he disputed. Thought Satan is the revolting and rebellious angelic being, his original rank was higher than that of the angel Michael.

Michael knowing this remain in his position and in principle shows no insubordination. Rather Michael says the HIGHEST ... the Lord is the One to rebuke Satan.

But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the Devil, arguing concerning the body of Moses, DID NOT DARE TO BRING A REVILING JUDGEMENT against him [the Devil] but said, The Lord rebuke you."

Galveston, you are trying to make Jude 9 say the exact OPPOSITE of what it says concerning the relative rank of these two beings.

@suzianne said
But the angel that appeared the "second time" was not just "an angel". It was "the angel of the Lord". This is widely believed to be a manifestation of God himself. And Abraham was well aware who it was.

I'm at work, or I'd write more. I'll come back to this.

I've already written how Genesis 22:11 echoes Genesis 22:1 in form. Another indicator that it's the same speaker speaking to Abraham in both verses.

Let's look at Genesis 22:12 now.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." - Genesis 22:12 KJV

"... thou hast not withheld thy son from me." "From me", not "from God". God is doing the talking here. In this case, "the angel of the Lord" is God himself. And Abraham has spoken with God before this. He knew who it was.

@suzianne said
I've already written how Genesis 22:11 echoes Genesis 22:1 in form. Another indicator that it's the same speaker speaking to Abraham in both verses.

Let's look at Genesis 22:12 now.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." - ...[text shortened]... ngel of the Lord" is God himself. And Abraham has spoken with God before this. He knew who it was.

But how then would you account for the angel of the lord talking to God, as documented in Zechariah 1:12?!

"And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest. Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?"

And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words."

@sonship said
@galveston75

The archangel, Michael, is the chief angel in terms of power and authority. The Scriptures clearly indicate that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ.​—1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 9.

No it doesn't Galveston. Both your verses there are forced shoe-ins of highly dubious stretching.

The most important mission of the Jehovah's Witnesse ...[text shortened]... Jehovah God incarnated.

Excuse me for the side note to this discussion on Abraham's obedience.

So what was Jesus's name, who is the "son" of God "Jehovah" before he came to earth to be born as a human?

@galveston75

Who is the holy spirit until we are made aware of his existence?

@eladar said
@galveston75

Who is the holy spirit until we are made aware of his existence?

Well the "who" part is where the confusion starts. This is where the trinity belief seems to get a little lost here. The who is not a who but it's a what. Both God and his son have names, Jehovah and Jesus. But the holy spirit has never been given a name. So is it another living spirit like Jehovah the Father or Jesus before he came to earth or after he was resurrected?
Genesis actually gives a clue, Genesis 1:2 " And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "
So does it say God himself was moving on the surface? No it says his spirit was there. So what is this spirit? Is it another 3rd god part of him as the trinity struggles to explain?

In the Bible, the word “spirit” is translated from the Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma. Most often, those words refer to God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Genesis 1:2) However, the Bible also uses those words in other senses:

Breath.​—Habakkuk 2:​19; Revelation 13:15.

Wind.​—Genesis 8:1; John 3:8.

The vital, or animating, force in living creatures.​—Job 34:14, 15.

A person’s disposition or attitude.​—Numbers 14:24.

Spirit persons, including God and the angels.​—1 Kings 22:21; John 4:​24.

These meanings all share the sense of something invisible to humans that produces visible effects. Similarly, the spirit of God, “like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.”​—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine.

The Bible also refers to God’s holy spirit as his “hands” or “fingers.” (Psalm 8:3; 19:1; Luke 11:20; compare Matthew 12:28.) Just as a craftsman uses his hands and fingers to do his work, God has used his spirit to produce such results as the following:

The universe.​—Psalm 33:6; Isaiah 66:​1, 2.

The Bible.​—2 Peter 1:​20, 21.

So to simplify God's spirit or Holy Spirit is simply God's force or strength that he uses to create as when he created the universe and the earth. He does not have physical hands or arms or feet etc. If he wills something to be created, he uses his spirit or force or power that no human has, to get it accomplished.
The holy spirit is no part of some three headed God. Jehovah's Holy spirit is not Jesus. Jesus is a spirit, a very strong spirit and he has his own spirit force or power to do the things he does for his Father.
Humans have physical fleshly muscles to make things. Spirit beings do not have human bodies so they use their force or spirit to do the things they do.