Why would Abraham ...

@galveston75 said
Well the "who" part is where the confusion starts. This is where the trinity belief seems to get a little lost here. The who is not a who but it's a what. Both God and his son have names, Jehovah and Jesus. But the holy spirit has never been given a name. So is it another living spirit like Jehovah the Father or Jesus before he came to earth or after he was resurrected?
...[text shortened]... . Spirit beings do not have human bodies so they use their force or spirit to do the things they do.

Yet nothing was created without Jesus.

@eladar said
Yet nothing was created without Jesus.

Except for Jesus himself. Remember the Bible says that "Jesus was the first born of all creation".
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, ( Not God but the image of his Father in all things with God's plans, God's dealing with humans, etc, etc) the firstborn of all creation 16 because by means of him "all other things" were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."
So yes all other things were created after Jesus came into existence in heaven, again the first thing Jehovah created eons of time before all other things were created. So notice again the scripture does not say Jesus created everything but it says "all things were created through him and for him."
His Father Jehovah created Jesus first. Then as the bible says about Jesus is that he was his Fathers master worker. No other spirit being or angel was ever called that but only Jesus. Then when his Father Jehovah continued on with creation over eons of time, it was Michael who was later named Jesus, which was only his earthly name, was by his Fathers side creating. This was a privilege that no other of God's sons had a part of.

“Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
Jn 14:8-9

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 1:8

But then in Rev 22:13
“I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Jesus claims to be the Lord God, the Father in the gospels and in Revelation.

@galveston75 said
Except for Jesus himself. Remember the Bible says that "Jesus was the first born of all creation".
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, ( Not God but the image of his Father in all things with God's plans, God's dealing with humans, etc, etc) the firstborn of all creation 16 because by means of him "all other things" were created in the heav ...[text shortened]... e, was by his Fathers side creating. This was a privilege that no other of God's sons had a part of.

Nope, sorry. Jesus was with God from the beginning as the Word. John 1:1.

Not "created".

I went over this with Robbie again and again and again. The "firstborn" of Colossians 1:15 means "pre-eminent", not "born first". (Again you JWs are too literal, like when you say "with the voice of the archangel" means that Jesus was an archangel.) He is "above all creation."

Col. 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" // "For by him were all things created" - "BY him" - Did he create himself? You JWs had to insert "by means of him" in your bible just to get the scripture to agree with your already-in-place dogma.

Col. 1:17 - "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." // This is what "pre-eminent" means.

Col. 1:18 - "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." // "firstborn from the dead" - Does this mean that he was born first from the dead? Your dogma makes no sense. He also has preeminence over the dead. "that in all things he might have preeminence" - Yes, exactly.

You limit Jesus if you claim he is only "born first", or "created first". He is above all creation, i.e. "not created".

@divegeester said
“Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
Jn 14:8-9

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 1:8

But then i ...[text shortened]... nning and the End.”

Jesus claims to be the Lord God, the Father in the gospels and in Revelation.

Yes.

@suzianne said
Yes.

Indeed!

@galveston75

Read an unaltered version of John 1.

@eladar said
@galveston75

Read an unaltered version of John 1.

I have read John 1 literally thousands of times . I'm an old guy. Lol.
I'm sure you are aware that the trinity has been discussed hundreds of time here and that those who believe the trinity seem to be assured of that teaching just as I and a couple others here are as sure in the trinity not being true.
So if I'm going to discuss that subject again there is a guideline I'm going to follow and that is I'm going to discuss 1 scripture at a time. This subject always turns into a free for all and with every scripture that might even hint that the trinity is real or that it's not being thrown out there and when that happens nothing is ever accomplished, ever.
So if I may start with the book of Genesis with a scripture we all know. 1:26: ( 26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”

So Jehovah said to someone, "let us" make man. Who is this "us"? Was he talking to himself? Unlikely. Was he talking to an angel? Could be. Someone was there with him for this statement to make sense. Correct? If I were working on my car and I said "let us work on this car and repair it", would I say that if no one was there with me? Of course not.
So sticking to this first scripture, who was Jehovah talking too?

@galveston75

I said an unaltered version.

@eladar said
@galveston75

I said an unaltered version.

Yes I have. I have access to almost every bible that's online. So your turn to comment on my discussion of the statement God made to someone?

@galveston75 said
Yes I have. I have access to almost every bible that's online. So your turn to comment on my discussion of the statement God made to someone?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 


The Word is Jesus. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Jesus was in existence from the beginning and nothing was created without Jesus.

@eladar said
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 


The Word is Jesus. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Jesus was in existence from the beginning and nothing was created without Jesus.

I agree with all of that as I have already stated except that one thing needs to be discussed.......later.

Now will you answer my statement on the scripture I started this thread with? Who was Jehovah talking too? If you don't know simply say so. If you do know, simply say so.

@galveston75

Here is a commentary on firstborn of creation

The firstborn of every creature (of all creation).—(1) As to the sense of this clause. The grammatical construction here will bear either the rendering of our version, or the rendering “begotten before all creation,” whence comes the “begotten before all worlds “of the Nicene creed. But the whole context shows that the latter is unquestionably the true rendering. For, as has been remarked from ancient times, He is said to be “begotten” and not “created;” next, he is emphatically spoken of below as He “by whom all things were created,” who is “before all things,” and in whom all things consist.” (2) As to the order of idea. In Himself He is “the image of God” from all eternity. From this essential conception, by a natural contrast, the thought immediately passes on to distinction from, and priority to, all created being. Exactly in this same order of idea, we have in Hebrews 1:2-3, “By whom also He made the worlds . . . upholding all things by the word of His power;” and in John 1:3, “All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made which was made. Here St. Paul indicates this idea in the words “firstborn before all creation,” and works it out in the verses following. (3) As to the name “firstborn” itself. It is used of the Messiah as an almost technical name (derived from Psalm 2:7; Psalm 89:28), as is shown in Hebrews 1:6, “when He bringeth the first begotten into the world.” In tracing the Messianic line of promise we notice that; while the Messiah is always true man, “the seed of Abraham,” “the son of David,” yet on him are accumulated attributes too high for any created being (as in Isaiah 9:6). He is declared to be an “Emmanuel” God with us; and His kingdom a visible manifestation of God. Hence the idea contained in the word “firstborn” is not only sovereignty “above all the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:28; comp. Daniel 8:13-14), but also likeness to God and priority to all created being. (4) As to the union of the two clauses. In the first we have the declaration of His eternal unity with God—all that was completely embodied in the declaration of the “Word who is God,” up to which all the higher Jewish speculations had led; in the second we trace the distinctness of His Person, as the “begotten of the Father,” the true Messiah of Jewish hopes, and the subordination of the co-eternal Son to the Father. The union of the two marks the assertion of Christian mystery, as against rationalising systems, of the type of Arianism on one side, of Sabellianism on the other.


biblehub.com/commentaries/colossians/1-15.htm

@eladar said
@galveston75

Here is a commentary on firstborn of creation

The firstborn of every creature (of all creation).—(1) As to the sense of this clause. The grammatical construction here will bear either the rendering of our version, or the rendering “begotten before all creation,” whence comes the “begotten before all worlds “of the Nicene creed. But the whole context shows th ...[text shortened]... ianism on one side, of Sabellianism on the other.


biblehub.com/commentaries/colossians/1-15.htm

Lots to read there and I appreciate it...but you still have not answered my question?

@galveston75

I believe I have which scripture do you want commentary?