Why would Abraham ...

@galveston75 said
I have read John 1 literally thousands of times . I'm an old guy. Lol.
I'm sure you are aware that the trinity has been discussed hundreds of time here and that those who believe the trinity seem to be assured of that teaching just as I and a couple others here are as sure in the trinity not being true.
So if I'm going to discuss that subject again there is a guideli ...[text shortened]... as there with me? Of course not.
So sticking to this first scripture, who was Jehovah talking too?

The Word, who was always with him.

How many times does it have to be said?

@eladar said
@galveston75

Here is a commentary on firstborn of creation

The firstborn of every creature (of all creation).—(1) As to the sense of this clause. The grammatical construction here will bear either the rendering of our version, or the rendering “begotten before all creation,” whence comes the “begotten before all worlds “of the Nicene creed. But the whole context shows th ...[text shortened]... ianism on one side, of Sabellianism on the other.


biblehub.com/commentaries/colossians/1-15.htm

This might have meant more, rendered with your own words.

@Suzianne

Info is info. Maybe it is a guy girl thing.

@eladar said
@Suzianne

Info is info. Maybe it is a guy girl thing.

Jesus wept.

[Those are my own original words]

@eladar said
@galveston75

I believe I have which scripture do you want commentary?

Gen1:26: ( 26 Then God said: ((((( Let us make man in our image))))), according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”
Again for the third time. Who was Jehovah talking too?

@galveston75

I have always assumed Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

@suzianne said
Nope, sorry. Jesus was with God from the beginning as the Word. John 1:1.

Not "created".

I went over this with Robbie again and again and again. The "firstborn" of Colossians 1:15 means "pre-eminent", not "born first". (Again you JWs are too literal, like when you say "with the voice of the archangel" means that Jesus was an archangel.) He is "above all creation." ...[text shortened]... only "born first", or "created first". He is above all creation, i.e. "not created".

Sorry you can play with words how ever you want. You can change scriptures how ever you want, I don't care. But the bible says what it says. You cannot change anything in the Bible just to make your belief to try and fit the bible. The bible warns that you are treading on dangerous ground when you do.

Again: the Bible says this about God's firstborn:


15 He is the "image" of the invisible God, ( This by no means on any level is this saying he is God but the image of his father Jehovah, just as I am the image or likeness of my Father not only in looks but in most other things as in our opinions)
It now says: he, Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. ( First born in any language means exactly what it says. I am also the first born of my father. I am not my father, I am myself just as Jesus is not his father but a totally separate spirit being.)

16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. ( Yes "All OTHER" things were created through him and for him. Why does it say "through him and for him"? Why not just say he created everything? Because he didn't create everything. His Father Jehovah crated him, his son. So yes after he was created his Father helped and allowed Jesus to create with his direction.
Read the scriptures and read exactly what they say. Not what the trinity has tarnished it with.

@galveston75 said
Gen1:26: ( 26 Then God said: ((((( Let us make man in our image))))), according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”
Again for the third time. Who was Jehovah talking too?

How many times do we have to tell you?

@galveston75 said
Sorry you can play with words how ever you want. You can change scriptures how ever you want, I don't care. But the bible says what it says. You cannot change anything in the Bible just to make your belief to try and fit the bible. The bible warns that you are treading on dangerous ground when you do.

Again: the Bible says this about God's firstborn:


15 He is th ...[text shortened]... .
Read the scriptures and read exactly what they say. Not what the trinity has tarnished it with.

Read it AGAIN, genius.

It DOES say he created everything.

Colossians 1:16 KJV - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

It says all things were created by him. It says this TWICE in the same verse, just in case, you know, you're stupid or something.

Now let's let Jesus make this a little easier to understand and prove the trinity is not true on any level:

Proverbs 8:27-30


27 When he ( Jehovah) prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I ( Jesus )was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time

Listen. Seriously listen. This is Jesus talking about his position in relation to his father Jehovah. Not once does he say he is God or equal to him on any level. In fact he refers to himself as a worker, a master worker for his Father.

So why does this scripture even exist? If Jesus was Almighty God or Jehovah and had all the power, knowledge and one that we are to worship, this scripture as well as many others would be a joke and all lies.
Not once did Jesus ever allow anyone to worship him but in fact rebuked ones who tried. He clearly said it is only his Father Jehovah we are to worship.
How blind one has to be to not see these scriptures.

@galveston75 said
Sorry you can play with words how ever you want. You can change scriptures how ever you want, I don't care. But the bible says what it says. You cannot change anything in the Bible just to make your belief to try and fit the bible. The bible warns that you are treading on dangerous ground when you do.

Again: the Bible says this about God's firstborn:


15 He is th ...[text shortened]... .
Read the scriptures and read exactly what they say. Not what the trinity has tarnished it with.

I'm not going to go over and over and over this.

Read my post, the third post on page 5.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand.

@galveston75 said
Now let's let Jesus make this a little easier to understand and prove the trinity is not true on any level:

Proverbs 8:27-30


27 When he ( Jehovah) prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the ...[text shortened]... is only his Father Jehovah we are to worship.
How blind one has to be to not see these scriptures.

You need to stop quoting your fake bible when trying to prove your points.

No one here considers that the word of God, except you.

@suzianne said
Read it AGAIN, genius.

It DOES say he created everything.

Colossians 1:16 KJV - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

It says all things were created by him. It says this TWICE in the same verse, just in case, you know, you're stupid or something.

Lol. Your understanding of what is being said in that scripture is still missing the point.
Why do you ignore the other scriptures where Jesus himself says he was created? It is because it ruins your theory of the trinity which any encyclopedia explains the trinity's Babylonian origins. Even the Catholic's encyclopedia says it's not a bible teaching.
Satan has got you so confused you wouldn't believe it if Jesus was in front of you explaining it to your face.

@suzianne said
You need to stop quoting your fake bible when trying to prove your points.

No one here considers that the word of God, except you.

Lol. Are you really serious? Here ya go:

Third Millennium Bible
Proverbs 8:27 (TMB) When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a compass upon the face of the deep,

Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha
Proverbs 8:27 (TMBA) When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a compass upon the face of the deep,

The Webster Bible
Proverbs 8:27 (WBT) When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

World English Bible
Proverbs 8:27 (WEB) When he established the heavens, I was there; When he set a circle on the surface of the deep,

Wycliffe
Proverbs 8:27 (WYC) When he made ready heavens, I was present (When he prepared the heavens, I was there); (and) when he compassed, [or (en)closed,] the depths of (the) waters by certain law and compass.

Young's Literal Translation
Proverbs 8:27 (YLT) In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,

American Standard Version
Proverbs 8:27 (ASV) When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,

The Bible in Basic English
Proverbs 8:27 (BBE) When he made ready the heavens I was there: when he put an arch over the face of the deep:

Common English Bible
Proverbs 8:27 (CEB) I was there when he established the heavens, when he marked out the horizon on the deep sea,

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
Proverbs 8:27 (CEBA) I was there when he established the heavens, when he marked out the horizon on the deep sea,

The Complete Jewish Bible
Proverbs 8:27 (CJB) When he established the heavens, I was there. When he drew the horizon's circle on the deep,

I just posted the first of these verses. Are these all fake too? Do I need to post more for you to condemn?

@suzianne said
But the angel that appeared the "second time" was not just "an angel". It was "the angel of the Lord". This is widely believed to be a manifestation of God himself. And Abraham was well aware who it was.

I'm at work, or I'd write more. I'll come back to this.

Thanks for the clarification.

I found the following about the hierarchies of angels:

https://www.catholic.org/saints/angels/angelchoir.php