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    Canrau K,

    ============================
    You characterised the world as a battlefield between God and the devil
    =================================



    The earth is the battlefield. But what you have to understand is that more central to that man's being is the battlefield. The earth is won by mind, emotion, will, of the redeemed believers being saturated with the element of Christ.

    It is concept not easy to grasp. But if you want to understand the Bible you must.

    The battle over the earth is won not over the dirt. Firstly it is won in the soul of man. It became corrupted because of the fall of man's soul. It becomes recovered because of the salvation of man's soul.

    And here "salvation" does not mean going off to a happy place forever. Here salvation means being saturated, permeated, filled, soaked with the essence of the Spirit of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

    The salvation of the soul is the soul being mingled with God through the indwelling and spreading of the resurrected Christ.

    "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    Christ in resurrection has transfigured Himself into a form in which He can enter into us and saturate us with Himself. The battle over the earth is won as a remnant group of saved believers allow the resurrected Christ to saturate them that they become the mingling of God and man.

    You probably never heard this before in all the denominations of Christianity.
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    23 Feb '08 14:001 edit
    ========================================

    The battle over the earth is won not over the dirt. Firstly it is won in the soul of man. It became corrupted because of the fall of man's soul. It becomes recovered because of the salvation of man's soul.

    =========================================



    I need to put some Scripture behind this so that you can see it clearly:


    Look to Romans chapter 8:

    For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. (v.19)

    For the creation was made subject to vanity not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it. (v.20)

    In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption unto the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (v.21)

    For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now. (v.22)

    And not only so, but we ourselve also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (v.23)




    You should read the entire chapter of Romans 8. But you can see here that Paul teaches that the revelation of the sons of God is the key to the releasing of the creation from vanity and corruption.

    The Spirit of the resurrected Christ is within the saved believers. He is seeking to grow, to expand, to saturate. This saturation will bring on their release into glory. Eventually even the physical body will be saturated with the divine life of the resurrected Christ. And the creation is released into the glory of the children of God.

    The creation fell because of the fall of man. The creation is restored because of the salvation of man. So our being saved by Jesus is also hastening the restoration of the harmonious universe.

    The real invironmentalists are those who are allowing the Spirit of the Son of God to "sonize" them also.
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Feb '08 18:571 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Where in the Bible does it say that God will torment me for the crime of not being perfect?

    Could you please quote which passage best discribes this belief? It should contain the word "torment" or an equivalent.

    I need to see the basis of your opinion about this and its context also.
    Rom 3:23
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Rev 3:2-5
    2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a] 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You [ b] have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    Rev 20:12-15
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
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    ==============================
    Rom 3:23
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    =================================


    The next verse, verse 24, did you notice?

    "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 3:24)

    Rather than me seeing "God is going to torment be forever because I am not perfect." I see "God has justified me freely through the redemption which is in Christ."

    The verse after that, verse 25, says Whom [Christ] God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstration of His righteousness ..."

    This Person Christ is a propitiation place, a realm, a place where His righteousness is demonstrated before God. Within the Person, in that place, that propitiation place, I am justified. Christ Himself is my perfection before God.

    While you look at that passage and see "God wants to torment me because I have committed the crime of not being perfect" I see "God will justify me by accounting Christ Himself as my perfection freely, through faith."

    It seems that you are sitting down to a turkey dinner and hunting for a bone to choke on.


    ==========================================
    Rev 3:2-5
    2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a] 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You [ b] have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
    =======================================


    That passage has nothing at all about eternal torment. It only talks about the reward of having Christ confess the name of the believer before His Father.

    Any blotting of the name out of the Book of Life can not be permanent. It can only be temporary. Because He cannot deny Himself that He has regenerated such a person to be a son of God.

    "If we endure, we will reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself,: ( 2 Timothy 2:12,13)

    Here you should clearly be able to see, that if the disciple of Jesus is faithless and denies his Lord, the Lord may deny him in turn. However, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself. He has saved that one eternally and caused him to be born of God as the Father's child, albiet a child in need of discipline.

    Such discipline will be to temporarily erase his name from the book of life. He will not enjoy the reward of the coming kingdom. But he will be saved eternally as through fire:

    "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)


    The disciple whose name is erased from the book of life is the disciple who suffers loss. He receives no reward. He is disciplined by being saved, yet so as through fire.

    After this temporary time of discipline and loss that faithless disciple will also be perfected. Everyone who is saved cannot postpone indefinitely being perfected before the eternal age begins. In fact all those who believe into Christ, Christ is able to present them perfected before His Father eventually:

    "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love" (Eph. 1:4)


    =============================================
    Rev 20:12-15
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    ========================================


    That scene occurs one thousand years at least after the reward and punishments are given by Christ to His redeemed people. See Revelation chapter 20. So if one thousand years earlier an immature disciple had his name erased from the book of life. But this time it has been written back in at the grewat white throne judgment before the eternal age - one thousand years at least after the millennial kingdom reward.

    For example, the name of the tribe of Dan was temporarily dropped from the name of the twelve tribes of Israel. In the account of Revelation 7:4-8 as well as 1 Chron. 5:1-2 the tribe of Dan was omitted because of its idolatry (Judges 18:30-31; 1 Kings 12:29-30; 2 Kings 10:29; compare to prophecy Gen. 49:17) However, though Dan's name was erased from the list of the twelve tribes in Revelation 7:4-8, Dan will still be counted during the millennial kingdom (Ezek. 48:4-5)

    Just as Dan's name was temporarily erased from the divine record and placed back in again, so will God temporarily erase the names of some uncooperative disciples of Jesus and latter write again their names in the book of life. In such a way He fulfills His promise - "and they shall by no means perish forever" (John 10:28)

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith,and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8)


    The verse you have mentioned regards reward (1 Cor.3:14,15) not gift (Eph. 2:8). The gift cannot be lost. The reward in the coming millennial kingdom can be lost.

    At best your view that "God wants to torment me forever because I have commited the crime of not being perfect" is kind of warped, not taking into account His extending of His perfect Son to be our needed righteousness before Him.
  5. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    24 Feb '08 02:58
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==============================
    Rom 3:23
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    =================================


    The next verse, verse 24, did you notice?

    "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 3:24)

    Rather than me seeing "God is going to torm ...[text shortened]... tending of His perfect Son to be our needed righteousness before Him.[/b]
    Rather than me seeing "God is going to torment be forever because I am not perfect." I see "God has justified me freely through the redemption which is in Christ."

    And what happens to those who don't get redeemed?

    If you had to make a guess, what percentage of humanity do you think will be redeemed?

    "The way is narrow, and few find it."

    It seems that you are sitting down to a turkey dinner and hunting for a bone to choke on.

    It's more like the chef claimed he wanted to make a turkey dinner for everyone, yet there are few place settings at the table.

    That passage has nothing at all about eternal torment.

    It needs to be read together with the last passage.

    Any blotting of the name out of the Book of Life can not be permanent. It can only be temporary.

    Well, this is an atypical view, at least. Can you find a passage that indicates more directly that names get re-added to the book?

    Such discipline will be to temporarily erase his name from the book of life. He will not enjoy the reward of the coming kingdom. But he will be saved eternally as through fire:

    Are you sure the Corinthians passage speaks of the same events? I see no mention of the Book of Life in it at all.

    For example, the name of the tribe of Dan was temporarily dropped from the name of the twelve tribes of Israel. In the account of Revelation 7:4-8

    Rev 7:4-8 is talking about a seal on the forehead, not an entry in the Book of Life.

    The verse you have mentioned regards [b]reward (1 Cor.3:14,15) not gift (Eph. 2:8). The gift cannot be lost. The reward in the coming millennial kingdom can be lost.[/b]

    One unfortunate side-effect of the verse that I chose is that you have fixated on the blotted-out, and paid no heed to those who never made it into the Book of Life in the first place.

    At best your view that "God wants to torment me forever because I have commited the crime of not being perfect" is kind of warped

    Well, my view is that typical protestant theology says that. And yes, I feel that is a warped view for them to have.

    ...not taking into account His extending of His perfect Son to be our needed righteousness before Him.

    This goes back to more eloquent postings by Vistesd like "God fails at salvation?" Even if God's Son saves some, can his plan be looked on as a success if most perish?
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    24 Feb '08 04:007 edits
    ============================

    And what happens to those who don't get redeemed?

    If you had to make a guess, what percentage of humanity do you think will be redeemed?

    =================================


    We are given no statistics on that.

    ============================
    "The way is narrow, and few find it."
    =============================


    That is not only true for people of the world. That is true for people of the world who are saved also. That word was spoken to the disciples.

    It is misleading to read every single verse in the New Testament as being solely and only about who is saved and who is not.


    ======================
    It's more like the chef claimed he wanted to make a turkey dinner for everyone, yet there are few place settings at the table.
    ==============================


    I hear the chef saying "After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no man could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne of God and before the Lamb ... and they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb " (Rev. 7:9,10)

    Looks like a large gathering to me - "a multitude which no man could number"

    =======================
    Well, this is an atypical view, at least. Can you find a passage that indicates more directly that names get re-added to the book?
    ==========================


    I provided the example of the name of the tribe of Dan for that purpose.

    I provided the example of the tribe of Dan for that purpose. And I provided the passages which speak of the gift of salvation. If it is a gift than it cannot be lost by works.

    " ... the kindness and the love to man of our Savior God appeared, not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, ..." (Titus 3:4,5)

    The salvation was not according to our works. So there can be no losing of the salvation because of our works.

    There can be the loss of reward which is something in addition to eternal redemption. I don't think I can find a verse explicitly speaking of writing one's name back in the book of life.

    But the erasing, may be a mark set next to one's name. The mark is taken away and the name is no longer erased. However God chooses to do it it is clear that eternal redemption is not according to our works to the loss of it cannot occur because of our works. It is logical.


    ================================
    Are you sure the Corinthians passage speaks of the same events? I see no mention of the Book of Life in it at all.
    =================================


    The Corinthain passage does not speak of fhe same event as the great white throne in Revelation 20. Instead it speaks to the rewards given to the saints 1,000 years prior to the great white throne. The parellel would be found in Revelation 11:18:

    "And the nations were angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy the destroyers of the earth" (Rev. 11:18)

    Here the judging of the dead refers not to the great white throne but the judgment which determines which peoples will be resurrected to the millennial kingdon and which will remain to be resurrected after the thousand years:

    Compare - "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. " (Rev. 20:5)

    At the second coming of Christ the first resurrection takes place at the initiation of the 1,000 year kingdom. The rest of the dead are judged by being left in the graves until the time of the second resurrection which is after the millennial kingdom.

    Rewards all relate to the time just before the millennial kingdom. Reward can be gained or loss. Disciples of Jesus will have rewards or they may have discipline.

    This passage is one of many which shows degrees of reward:

    "Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)

    Notice that the one called the "least" and the one called the "great" are BOTH in the kingdom of the heavens. So reward in the millennial kingdom is by degrees. Compare this to the teaching of the rewarded saints assigned to rule over ten cities or five cities (Luke 19:14-19)

    And the following passage shows degrees of punishment to those saved according to thier knowledge:

    "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes.

    But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to whom much is has been given, much will be required of him; and to whom mich has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:46-48)


    Christ is speaking in this teaching about His servants. According to the knowledge they had He will require of them appropriate works. This is for reward or discipline. This is not for eternal redemption which is the gift of grace not according to our works.

    In many and various ways the New Testament warns Christians that they may lose the reward and they may be punished temporarily by the Lord Jesus.

    ===========================
    One unfortunate side-effect of the verse that I chose is that you have fixated on the blotted-out, and paid no heed to those who never made it into the Book of Life in the first place.
    ===================================


    They perish. They go with their leader the Devil. His destiny becomes their co-destiny. We will go with our leader. We will co-inherit the destiny of our leader whether of Christ or the Devil.

    ============================

    Well, my view is that typical protestant theology says that. And yes, I feel that is a warped view for them to have.
    ================================


    Then don't blame the Bible or the God of the Bible. Rather seek to get a better understanding. And realize that you too are liable to make mistakes even though well intentioned.

    ========================
    This goes back to more eloquent postings by Vistesd like "God fails at salvation?" Even if God's Son saves some, can his plan be looked on as a success if most perish?
    ==========================


    The testimomy of the centries of God overcoming obstacle after obstacle, human failure after human failure, human weakness after human weakness demonstrates to me that He cannot fail.

    He didn't stop with the failure of Adam, or of Noah, or of Abraham, or of Isaac, or Jacob or of the tribes of Isreal, etc. etc. He never stopped. He never gave up His eternal purpose.

    So I believe He has accomplished His plan.

    A multitude which no man could number out of every tribe and nation and tongue, is a big success.

    The gates of the New Jerusalem opened to the four direction of the globe - east, west, north, and south, speak of the universality of His salvation.

    His victory is overwhelming according to the rejoicing we see of the redeemed. He is happy with obtaining His Bride and the nations of the saved in the new heaven and new earth of eternity.

    The footnotes to the Recovery Version of the Bible are a great help on this.

    www.recoveryversion.org
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    24 Feb '08 08:591 edit
    Originally posted by Mexico
    .... and just because millions have the same figment doesn't mean it exists....
    I think you have to be careful here. If enough people believe something then to all practical intents and purposes it does exist.

    I refer you to the witchcraft trials and deaths of people (who *really* were the spawn of satan) at the hands of *Godly* people.
  8. Standard memberagryson
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    24 Feb '08 10:59
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I said that the thrill is in opposing God. Even opposing the whole idea of God.

    Of course you could ask atheists themselves and find out. But I frankyl don't trust their answers to be honest in many things.

    The Bible says that some people [b]"hold down the truth in unrighteousness"
    .

    I would take that to mean that they know what is right but ...[text shortened]... o hold down such thoughts from rising up within them - an act of will fortified by reasoning.[/b]
    If the act of will is fortified by reasoning, then surely all that needs to be done to weaken the act of will is to show flaws in the reasoning, no?
    That's not happening, so there's only one clear conclusion...
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    24 Feb '08 11:51
    Originally posted by agryson
    If the act of will is fortified by reasoning, then surely all that needs to be done to weaken the act of will is to show flaws in the reasoning, no?
    That's not happening, so there's only one clear conclusion...
    That may be a case by case situation. In some cases possibly that is so. I would like to think it is so.

    However, have you heard this saying among the people?


    "A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    24 Feb '08 17:531 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]============================

    And what happens to those who don't get redeemed?

    If you had to make a guess, what percentage of humanity do you think will be redeemed?

    =================================


    We are given no statistics on that.

    ============================
    "The way is narrow, and few find it."
    ================= f the Bible are a great help on this.

    www.recoveryversion.org
    [/b]
    We are given no statistics on that.

    That's why I asked you to guess.

    I've heard the world is roughly 30% Christian now. If so, that means the other 70% go to hell. .300 may be a good batting average in baseball, but it's lousy for saving souls.

    It is misleading to read every single verse in the New Testament as being solely and only about who is saved and who is not.

    Matt 7:13-14
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    If you don't think this verse is about being saved, then what is the 'destruction' it describes?

    Looks like a large gathering to me - "a multitude which no man could number"

    Small comfort for the much larger group that does not make it there.

    They perish. They go with their leader the Devil. His destiny becomes their co-destiny.

    How convenient. Rather than recognize that [for one] people born in non-Christian cultures have a slim chance of becoming a Christian, you just label them all devil followers. That certainly simplifies matters.

    Then don't blame the Bible or the God of the Bible. Rather seek to get a better understanding.

    Perhaps you mistook what I said for an admission of error, or a validation of your particular theology. It was neither.

    The testimomy of the centries of God overcoming obstacle after obstacle, human failure after human failure, human weakness after human weakness demonstrates to me that He cannot fail.

    But the Bible documents that he will. Most of humanity will be lost to hell, despite his alleged intent to save them. He has utterly failed in this regard.
  11. Standard memberagryson
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    24 Feb '08 20:05
    Originally posted by jaywill
    That may be a case by case situation. In some cases possibly that is so. I would like to think it is so.

    However, have you heard this saying among the people?

    [b]
    "A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
    [/b]
    That's why I said it would weaken rather than destroy the act of will. Also, the saying is logically flawed.
    If I have been convinced against my will, my opinion necessarily has changed, otherwise I wouldn't have been convinced in the first place. If I hold the same opinion after a reasoned, convincing and logical argument has been put forward, to which I cannot logically respond to, then I have not been convinced, making me irrational.
    Thankfully, that's not been done yet.
    (by which I mean that I have been convinced by such arguments and thus changed my opinion, not that I have never had such arguments succesfully made against me, indeed it was one such argument which has made me a more engaged atheist rather than a passive one, which had been my previous position)
  12. Joined
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    25 Feb '08 01:367 edits
    =====================
    Matt 7:13-14
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
    ==============================


    Are there any other passages which speak of destruction which do not necessarily mean eternal perdition?

    Have you looked for any?

    For example "Do not destroy by your food that man for whom Christ died" (Rom. 14:15)

    The context there is one Christian brother destroying another because the first cannot be general enough. Destruction there does not mean hell.

    I already showed you examples of servants being punished by their Master though they are saved. They undergo a kind of destruction of their soulish life though they do not perish eternally.

    Christ spoke a word that whoever shall save his soul life shall lose it. And whoever loses his soul life for His sake and the gospel will save it. That word of losing the soul life referes to a kind of destruction which does not in all cases mean eternal perdition.

    Paul speaks to the Christians in Corinth who are eternally redeemed this word:

    "Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

    If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:16-17)


    Here a God warns that He will destroy those who destroy the living temple of God which is His church. This also is a destruction not meaning eternal perdition.

    A careful reading reveals that the one who will be destroyed for destroying the temple is exactly the kind of Christian brother in the previous verse 15 who will lose his reward but still be saved:

    "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himslf will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)

    Therefore the "suffer loss" must be the equivalent of "him will God destroy". Since the one who suffers loss will be saved yet as through fire, the destruction he endures from the Lord Jesus must be a destruction not meaning eternal punishment.


    ========================
    Small comfort for the much larger group that does not make it there.

    They perish. They go with their leader the Devil. His destiny becomes their co-destiny.

    How convenient. Rather than recognize that [for one] people born in non-Christian cultures have a slim chance of becoming a Christian, you just label them all devil followers. That certainly simplifies matters.
    ====================================


    Only a superfiscial reading of the Bible would lead me to believe that.

    Just one example to the contrary of your complaint would be:

    " ... rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire. Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength ... " (2 Thess. 1:7,8)

    Here there are two catagories of people who will be punished.

    1.) Those who do not know God

    2.) Those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    There is therefore room in this passage and in others similiar to it, which suggest circumstances are taken into account by Christ in His second coming to execute justice.

    Some are without excuse to say that they do not know God. Others heard the gospel of Jesus Christ but were disobedient to it. They did not repent or believe the gospel.

    Besides this I agree with the prophet Abraham who grilled God repeatedly on His fairness in Genesis 18. Finally Abraham confessed " Far be it from You! Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly." (Gen. 18:25)

    With Abraham I trust that the Judge of all the earth will do justly. My portion is to obey the gospel as a believer and a spreader of its message to all the world.

    I am not charged to do statistical analysis to determine percentages supposedly unfairly judged. Nor is it to be able to have an air tight case for every conceivable hypothetical situation to prove to some people that God is just. Some Christians labor to do this. I no longer do.

    Whatever the situation of those people in your "non-Christian cultures" for whom you are concerned, that is probably not your situation. You have first to consider your situation.

    Then one can get the gospel burden to take the good news to places where it has not been annoucned, should God lead them to do that.

    We can obey without knowing everything. we do not have to wait until there are no more questions about any conceivable scenario before we believe the gospel and live the gospel.

    ================================
    But the Bible documents that he will. Most of humanity will be lost to hell, despite his alleged intent to save them. He has utterly failed in this regard.
    =====================================


    You go then and proclaim your message of the failure of God.

    I'll continue to tell the good news of living Christ for the kingdom.

    From what I have seen most of the people who claim to have the truth while rejecting the gospel invariably conceive something more elitist and more restrictive rather than less.

    They do not improve upon "Whosoever believes ...". They usually invent somthing more restrictive to arrive at the truth of life.


    I will not be conversing further with you on this subject. We're through on it.
  13. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    25 Feb '08 04:39
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=====================
    Matt 7:13-14
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
    ==============================


    Are there any other passages wh ...[text shortened]... ll not be conversing further with you on this subject. We're through on it.[/b]
    Are there any other passages which speak of destruction which do not necessarily mean eternal perdition? Have you looked for any?

    I've read through the entire Bible numerous times. I have read every passage therein. I know some speak of temporal, or earthly destruction. I also know a good many speak of eternal destruction.

    I am not charged to do statistical analysis to determine percentages supposedly unfairly judged.

    I only brought that up to see if you had put any thought into the question of how many will go to heaven and how many to hell.

    Whatever the situation of those people in your "non-Christian cultures" for whom you are concerned, that is probably not your situation. You have first to consider your situation.

    No I don't. If a holy book claims that God wants to save the whole world, and yet he fails to save a large group within its population, that alone brings the claim that God is benevolent into question.

    We can obey without knowing everything. we do not have to wait until there are no more questions about any conceivable scenario before we believe the gospel and live the gospel.

    I can readily accept that some things are mysterious, or ineffable, or beyond my understanding. What I cannot accept is an obvious logical contradiction staring me in the face.

    From what I have seen most of the people who claim to have the truth while rejecting the gospel invariably conceive something more elitist and more restrictive rather than less.

    I could not accept even your version of the Christian faith, to be honest. 1% of the human population going to hell with a 'loving' God in charge is 1% too many. It is not good enough that God may save some people of other faiths. It is not good enough that he may save some young children who have not reached the age of decision. Even one soul sentenced to eternal hell is demonstrably unjust.
  14. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    25 Feb '08 06:22
    Originally posted by Kevin Mcfarland
    If there is no God then why are there so many pepole that say they worship the devil? Just a question I have been thinking about.
    How many are we talking about? I have never met one of these people, and the only confirmation of their existence has been one poster on these forums who says he knows a genuine devil worshiper.

    Note: The group who call themselves Satanists, do not worship the devil, nor believe in his existence or Gods'.

    What you really should be asking however is, if there is no God they why do so many people worship God - surely they outnumber the devil worshipers and therefore pose a bigger question?
    Also, if only one God exists, then why do so many people worship other gods?
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