Originally posted by DarfiusWell, at first glance, that doesn't seem explicit on the "no repentance, no forgiveness" question. But I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. Thanks.
Heb 10:25-31 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (26) [b]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fie ...[text shortened]... shall judge his people. (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Originally posted by NyxieFrom a Scriptural standpoint, I think it is fairly clear that Judas did go to hell.
Well what say you?
Nyxie
I'm surprised that the Biblical Scholars Darfius and Ivanhoe have not cited what
I opine to be the relevant Scripture passage:
St Mark 14:20-21
[Jesus] said to [the Twelve], 'One of the Twelve, the one who dips with Me
into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of Him, but woe
to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man
if he had never been born.
This does not suggest the possibility of forgiveness to me.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioWhoops.
From a Scriptural standpoint, I think it is fairly clear that Judas did go to hell.
I'm surprised that the Biblical Scholars Darfius and Ivanhoe have not cited what
I opine to be the relevant Scripture passage:
St Mark 14:20-21
[Jesus] said to [the Twelve], 'One of the Twelve, the one who dips with Me
into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed ...[text shortened]... ver been born.
This does not suggest the possibility of forgiveness to me.
Nemesio[/b]
Good find.
Originally posted by NemesioFrom a Scriptural standpoint, I think it is fairly clear that Judas did go to hell...."It would be better for that man if he had never been born"....This does not suggest the possibility of forgiveness to me.
From a Scriptural standpoint, I think it is fairly clear that Judas did go to hell.
I'm surprised that the Biblical Scholars Darfius and Ivanhoe have not cited what
I opine to be the relevant Scripture passage:
St Mark 14:20-21
[Jesus] said to [the Twelve], 'One of the Twelve, the one who dips with Me
into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed ...[text shortened]... ver been born.
This does not suggest the possibility of forgiveness to me.
Nemesio[/b]
Well, I'm not sure the "bridge" between these statements is that strong. Telling someone that it would be better had they never been born is an oft-used statement that generally just means that something really bad will happen. The consequences for the act are not specified, certainly not as eternal damnation, here.
Originally posted by DarfiusFor if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[b/]Heb 10:25-31 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowl ...[text shortened]... t is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This passage says that if you sin after you receive "the knowledge of the truth" you're screwed. Where does it say in this passage that repenting for your sins will allow you to go to Heaven? And that ain't Jesus talking in Hebrews, is it? You know, Jesus, the guy who said to the adultress "I do not condemn you"?
Originally posted by no1marauderIt says if you sin wilfully. I would say Judas killed himself on purpose, eh?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
This passage says that if you sin after you receive "the knowledge of the truth" you're screwed. Where does ...[text shortened]... in Hebrews, is it? You know, Jesus, the guy who said to the adultress "I do not condemn you"?
Wilfully includes not willing to repent. Or planning to.
Jesus also said "Now go and sin no more." to the same adulteress. And it's God the Father that does the judging on Judgement day. Jesus' 1st coming wasn't to condemn the world, but to save it.
Originally posted by vistesdI didn't mean to imply that I thought it was conclusive. I said
Well, I'm not sure the "bridge" between these statements is that strong. Telling someone that it would be better had they never been born is an oft-used statement that generally just means that something really bad will happen. The consequences for the act are not specified, certainly not as eternal damnation, here.
it suggested that forgiveness was not an option. As for the idea
that 'not being born' is an 'oft-used statement,' I note that this
only occurs twice in the NT, in Sts Matthew and Mark in regards to
this passage (i.e., concordantly). I have no concept of the impact
that such a phrase would have had in the first century; how we view
it today is not a relevant issue.
Also, consider the use of the word 'Woe' (or alas, ouai in Greek):
it is reserved for rather dramatic situations (e.g., Woe to the Pharisees...).
I'm not inclined to believe that Jesus was simply using a turn-of-phrase
here. He's pretty grim -- I don't recall that he has any harsher words for
anyone in the Bible.
And, if we accept that Jesus is The Deity, when God says, 'It's better
that you weren't born,' it sounds like something a person ought to take
seriously.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioYes, but Jesus did forgive him and all others who partook of his crucifixation. They were the first forgiven.
From a Scriptural standpoint, I think it is fairly clear that Judas did go to hell.
I'm surprised that the Biblical Scholars Darfius and Ivanhoe have not cited what
I opine to be the relevant Scripture passage:
St Mark 14:20-21
[Jesus] said to [the Twelve], 'One of the Twelve, the one who dips with Me
into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed ...[text shortened]... ver been born.
This does not suggest the possibility of forgiveness to me.
Nemesio[/b]
Nyxie
Originally posted by NemesioI said willfully, not willingly.
There is no such thing as sinning unwillingly.
Nemesio
will·ful also wil·ful ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wlfl)
adj.
Said or done on purpose; deliberate. See Synonyms at voluntary.
Obstinately bent on having one's own way.
That is the definition meant.
Originally posted by DarfiusSinning necessarily means wilfully. You can't have
I said willfully, not willingly.
will·ful also wil·ful ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wlfl)
adj.
Said or done on purpose; deliberate. See Synonyms at voluntary.
[b]Obstinately bent on having one's own way.
That is the definition meant.
[/b]
unwilful sinning. Or at least, I can't think of a single
example of one....
Nemesio
Originally posted by NyxieI assume that you are referring to St Luke 23:34, which reads:
Yes, but Jesus did forgive him and all others who partook of his crucifixation. They were the first forgiven.
Then Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.'
You may be interested to know that many of the ancient authorities
(i.e., the oldest editions of St Luke's Crucifixion account) lack this
verse, which suggests that it is a scribal interpolation (i.e., not said
by Jesus).
Also, I think the context here refers specifically to those present, the
ones nailing Him to the Cross, dividing up His cloths, jeering and so
forth. I don't get the impression that this was a global forgiveness for
all who participated in getting Him to this point.
I'm not excluding the possibility that He forgave Judas, but I don't
believe that this passage really lends much credence to that possibility
and I think that the tenor of Jesus's statements in the Last Supper
accounts in Sts Mark and Matthew fight against it.
Just my 2 cents.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioOk Could you believe, that if Jesus had forgiven him, that Judas will be in heaven?
I assume that you are referring to St Luke 23:34, which reads:
Then Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.'
You may be interested to know that many of the ancient authorities
(i.e., the oldest editions of St Luke's Crucifixion account) lack this
verse, which suggests that it is a scribal interpolation (i.e., not said
by Je ...[text shortened]... Last Supper
accounts in Sts Mark and Matthew fight against it.
Just my 2 cents.
Nemesio
Nyxie
I thought that I should expound to you all why exactly I feel Jesus commited suicide and was not merely the innocent victim of human murderers. All of what I am about to say assumes that God (three in one: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) does in fact exist and is accurately described in the 66 books of the Holy Bible. To me, this assumption basically makes what follows little more than an imaginative exercise, but here we go anyway.
Let's consider how suicide occurs. Now when we say that an agent attempts suicide, it actually means that the agent took steps and made decisions with the intent of manipulating its environment such that the agent would die.
For example, consider some one who attempts suicide by shooting themselves in the head. What did the agent do? They deliberately took steps (acquired a firearm, ensured that the firearm was loaded, pointed the firearm toward a vital location on the agent's body, released the safety, and squeezed the trigger with his/her finger). No one of these actions nor the sum of them together actually killed the agent, rather the force of the bullet entering the skull at a very high velocity completely destroyed some necessary portion of the brain. The bullet killed the agent.
What makes this different from a drive-by shooting or a hunting accident in which the agent is also shot in the head? The key is intent to die and deliberate action to actualize the event. The agent who commits suicide manipulates his/her environment to produce the desired effect, self-death.
Now suicide need not be ignominious. Consider a revolutionary fighting an oppresive and corrupt government. She is taken by the enemy. She has valuable secrets, secrets which would betray the whole movement and surely spell defeat for the cause if the enemy knew them. She knows that they will torture her, and she knows that in some state of indescribable agony, she will unconsciously give up the information. To save her people and ensure freedom for generations to come, she swallows poison and dies.
Again we have an intent to die and deliberate steps to bring about the end of one's life. In this case, however, many people would consider the woman's self-sacrifice heroic.
Now why do I think that Jesus commited suicide?
First, according to the assumptions about the existence of God, by omniscience Jesus knew even when designing the world that this particular creation would "fall," that is would become sinful. Second, we know that God, and thus Jesus, chose to accept nothing less than a blood sacrifice to make up for this offense against Him, and not just any blood sacrifice. He wanted the blood of an unblemished human. But Creation would be in short supply of perfect humans. How then did He proceed?
Answer: God chose to become human and sacrifice Himself (as Jesus).
So does this qualify as suicide? God selects from among many possible worlds one in which He will find it desireable to kill himself. Rather than choosing away from this, He takes all means necessary to bring about this result. He could have created another perfect human being to sacrifice. He could have chosen a different payment for man's debt. But debt was more important to Him than His life. So he planned His own death, even while contemplating creation. We have intent and deliberate steps to actualize the event.
Is this my only reason for believing that Jesus commits suicide in the Bible? No. Let's consider Jesus' actions leading up to His crucifixion. He foretells His own death (Matt 17:12) days before his crucifixion. He chooses not to take actions to prevent this. In Luke 22:42, Jesus reminds us that it is God's will (and thus by the trinity, Jesus' as well) to be killed. He desires to be sacrificed. Later, in trials both before Herod and Pilate, Jesus does not defend himself. When He is enduring the beginnings of cruxificion He does not call down angels or rise up in awesome power. Rather He pursues His own death, a death He scripted and willed from the beginning of time.
It's like a man who jumps upon a red ant's nest. Slowly, agonizingly the ants devour his body, bit by bit. He dies. Now the ants were the ones who killed the man, but the man still commited suicide. He knew that the ants would eat him if he leaped upon the ant hill. Nevertheless, he had an intent to die and manipulated his environment to actualize that event. Suicide.
God is like the man and the people who crucified Jesus were like the ants. He knew they would kill Him. In fact, He chose it to be so from the beginning of creation.
"Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave– just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matt 20:26-28 NIV
Noble perhaps, but suicide all the same.
Originally posted by NyxieWell, working within a Christian theological framework,
Ok Could you believe, that if Jesus had forgiven him, that Judas will be in heaven?
anyone forgiven by Jesus or the Father (or by St Peter
as per St Matthew 16:19b and, by extension the other
leaders of the church), anyone, including Judas would
be in heaven.
So, with the above givens, I have no difficultly believing
that Judas may have been forgiven and thus is in heaven.
I would describe such an opinion as traditionally unOrthodox
and not particularly well supported by Scripture, but not
utterly excluded.
Nemesio