Originally posted by FreakyKBHJesus never really says that he is God, and he frequently makes the distinction between God and himself. A wave is one with the ocean, but a wave is not the ocean.
[b]Jesus never really says that he is God
John 10:30:
"I and the Father are one."
Among other many verses and passages.[/b]
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Originally posted by huckleberryhoundAbsolute relativity only goes so far. It can be used to better understand different cultures, but when it is used to justify anything it starts to break down.
After reading all the posts on this thread, i wish to include this point.
Lets say God made everything. The animals, the heaven, the earth, and us. We take it for granted that animals do not go to hell for things that they do in every day situations- Killing others of thier own species, stealling others prey, throwing eggs out of nests, etc. The n and rewritten over two thousand years does not give you right to preach?
Please discuss.
Are there any non sinners left? Surely non-action, and hypocracy, are the greatest sins of all, paying lip service to a book written and rewritten over two thousand years does not give you right to preach?
All have sinned, this is true. That doesn’t mean that we can’t or shouldn’t do anything to change it.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHLOL!
As stated, this is but one of many verses and passages which support the Trinity, and in turn, the Deity of Jesus. Jesus' many claims for Himself, as well as Paul assertions to the same make your contestation moot.
I provided Scriptural support to the contrary which logically explains
the one (of 'many'😉 citation that might suggest the contrary.
What have you done: Repeated yourself.
LOL!
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI find it fascinating what we agree on.
Jesus never really says that he is God, and he frequently makes the distinction between God and himself. A wave is one with the ocean, but a wave is not the ocean.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:54 Jesus answer ...[text shortened]... hat loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Originally posted by NemesioSuperficial readings and renderings of the Bible, and soon you will have people stoning the homosexual, plucking out their eyes, cutting off their hands, and etc.
LOL!
I provided Scriptural support to the contrary which logically explains
the one (of 'many'😉 citation that might suggest the contrary.
What have you done: Repeated yourself.
LOL!
Nemesio
The Navajo have a saying:
You cannot wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
'Nuff said.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHDoes that also mean that you can't educate someone who pretends to know what they're talking about?
Superficial readings and renderings of the Bible, and soon you will have people stoning the homosexual, plucking out their eyes, cutting off their hands, and etc.
The Navajo have a saying:
You cannot wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
'Nuff said.
Originally posted by scottishinnzYou can take it to mean just about anything you want in today's world, actually.
Does that also mean that you can't educate someone who pretends to know what they're talking about?
I meant it to say, if a person has determined to establish their mind, no matter what the facts say, there is no changing their mind.
The truth must be sought, it is not as easily grasped as plucking fruit from the tree.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI'll take this to mean you have no response to my careful observation that there is no
Superficial readings and renderings of the Bible, and soon you will have people stoning the homosexual, plucking out their eyes, cutting off their hands, and etc.
The Navajo have a saying:
You cannot wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
'Nuff said.
Scriptural passage which asserts that Jesus is God and many which feature Him as
distinct from God.
Nemesio
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI believe there is a log in your eye, brother.
I meant it to say, if a person has determined to establish their mind, no matter what the facts say, there is no changing their mind.
The truth must be sought, it is not as easily grasped as plucking fruit from the tree.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioNem, you will take it anyway you want, as you certainly cannot change your mind, even when confronted with the facts. You could be given multiple passages, many verses, and you will do whatever you can to (torturously) twist your way out of them.
I'll take this to mean you have no response to my careful observation that there is no
Scriptural passage which asserts that Jesus is God and many which feature Him as
distinct from God.
Nemesio
You will comb all translations until you find one with an adverb which supports your vague interpretation. Forget what Jesus said about Himself, forget what the prophecies said about Him and Who He must be, forget the multiple claims of Paul on His behalf, your mind is made up. Good for you: it's good to have things settled in one's mind. Good luck with that, when you meet the Judge, and it's not a bunch of chess-geeks you have to persuade, but -what's this!- God Himself.
You can use phrases like 'careful observation' and all the other shields of so-called intellectual consideration, the fact remains, whether in name or in fact, Jesus is referred to as God multiple times. The 'matter' had been established before the foundation of the world, and has been revealed in time.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Nem, you will take it anyway you want, as you certainly cannot change your mind, even when confronted with the facts. You could be given multiple passages, many verses, and you will do whatever you can to (torturously) twist your way out of them.
You gave me one; I responded by providing the context in which that one occurred which
clarifies the intent of the author, and then gave you others from the author which elucidate
that intent.
You will comb all translations until you find one with an adverb which supports your vague interpretation. Forget what Jesus said about Himself, forget what the prophecies said about Him and Who He must be, forget the multiple claims of Paul on His behalf, your mind is made up.
I turned to the Greek and quoted it for you. Did you miss it? The Greek concords with
the translation I provided. It does not support the translation you provided.
Jesus never said He was God (please see the extensive quotations I provided). St Paul never
says that Jesus is God (please see the response with the Greek I provided).
I would say that you are the one with your head in the sand, taking the dogmas of the 2nd century
ratified by 4th-century councils and applying them anachronistically to writers who held no such
dogmas.
Good for you: it's good to have things settled in one's mind. Good luck with that, when you meet the Judge, and it's not a bunch of chess-geeks you have to persuade, but -what's this!- God Himself.
I know you think I should be scared by this, but I assure you I have spoken with my God and
discussed these matters with Him in prayer. I assure you, He understands my point of view
and knows that I have contemplated them in earnest, as opposed to tacitly accepting that which
popular religion espouses. And, where He knows my error, He knows that I have tried and, if He
has a modicum of mercy (which I believe), He will forgive me.
You can use phrases like 'careful observation' and all the other shields of so-called intellectual consideration, the fact remains, whether in name or in fact, Jesus is referred to as God multiple times. The 'matter' had been established before the foundation of the world, and has been revealed in time.
The broken-record approach may comfort you, but the only intellectual consideration you've shown
me is good grammar of your posts. Their lack of content speaks for themselves and the only
people who might find them compelling are the very people whose minds are made up and don't
want to read the Bible with a critical eye, much less in the Greek.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI responded by providing the context in which that one occurred which clarifies the intent of the author
Clear this one up for me, since my Greek is so rusty, and my Hebrew is suspect. Who is responsible for creating the world?
Here's another of many passages which point to the sharing of the same titles and/or attributes, from 1 Timothy:
...to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
I would go on, but you strain out the gnat to swallow the camel. Even the one passage I gave you, you neglect the whole of it after claiming victory on the heels of an adverb. What of the rest of the passage? What of this passage?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I would go on, but you strain out the gnat to swallow the camel. Even the one passage I gave you, you neglect the whole of it after claiming victory on the heels of an adverb. What of the rest of the passage? What of this passage?
LOL! I was the one who examined the whole passage until you incorrectly claimed the
Greek said one thing when it said precisely what I rendered in English.
Your memory is very spotty.
As for this passage, I wish you would have gone on, but first things first. For those
who don't know the Pastoral Epistles fluently like you and I, you quoted I Timothy 6:14-16.
Let's start at 13, so we have the complete sentence:
Paraggello soi enopion tou Theou tou zoogonountos ta panta
I charge you before God the one giving life to all things
kai Christou Iesou tou marturesantos epi Pontiou Pilatou ten kalen omologian,
and Christ Jesus the one having testified before Pontius Pilate the good confession,
teresai se ten entolen aspilon anepilempton mechri tes epiphaneias tou kuriou emon Iesou Christou
to keep the commandment spotless, irreproachable, until the appearing of the lord of us, Jesus Christ
en kairois idiois deixei o makarios kai monos dunastes,
which in its own times will show the blessed and only sovereign,
o basileus ton basileuonton kai kurios ton kurieounton,
the king of the ones reigning as kings and the lord of the ones ruling as lords,
o monos echon athanasian, phos oikon aprositon,
the only one having immorality, dwelling-[in]light unapproachable,
on eiden oudeis anthropon oude idein dunatai; o time kai kratos aionion, amen.
whom saw no one of (among) men neither is able to see; to whom [be] honor and power eternal. Amen.
So, faithfully, it reads:
I [St Paul] charge you, before God -- the one who gives life to all things -- and [before] Christ
Jesus -- the one who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate -- to keep the
commandment spotless and without reproach until the Lord Jesus Christ appears [or is
manifested, as in epiphany], which, at the right time, he will show the blessed and holy
Sovereign -- the King the ones reigning as kings and the Lord of the ones ruling as lords. [He
is] the only one with immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, and has seen the one whom
no one among men has either seen or can see. [He is] the one to whom honor and eternal
power shall be. Amen.
You will notice that, even in this passage, (pseudo-)St Paul makes a distinction between
God and Jesus. You will notice that Jesus acts as an intermediary between (ordinary) human
beings and God, which is consistent with (real) St Paul's main thesis -- that Jesus is an image
of the God, a representation of God (but clearly never asserting that Jesus was God).
You might want to flip back a few pages to I Timothy 2:5 et passim.
Eis gar Theos, eis kai mesites Theou kai anthropon, anthropos Christos Iesous...
One for [there is] God, one also mediator of God and of men, a man Christ Jesus...
That is, 'For there is one God; also there is one mediator of God and men: a man, Christ Jesus.
Again, careful, precise, clear distinction in the very letter you think supports your own
thesis.
I'm happy to keep going with the Greek, although my translations concord with standard Protestant
(NRSV) and Roman Catholic (NAB) bibles. I don't mind jumping through these hoops you've
set up in an effort to elucidate what the texts already clearly and uniformly state, that Jesus had
a special status in the eyes of His faithful, but none of them present Him as God, and they often
present Him as 'second to God.'
And, I don't mind that you think that He was God, the second member of the Holy Trinity, as
long as you are honest that such a conclusion is the product of 2nd-century theology and not a
representation of 1st-century Christians.
Nemesio