With or without religion

@suzianne said
Did you mean FGM? Just asking to clarify. I agree with your post.

Yes. My phone takes it upon itself to correct it because FMG comes up more often than FGM when I text. Thanks for the heads up.

@kellyjay said
The line "...good people to do evil...", assumes there are those that are good, good compared to what, just those that do a lot of evil? Are these good people good all of the time which would make them good? I think that statement assumes all people don't fit in both groups from time to time, doing good, and doing evil.

It's just a generalization. And it's also entirely subjective. I take it to mean that people do good and bad things regardless of religion, but because of the nature of some religious obligations, there are otherwise good people who do bad things in the observance of those obligations while believing those obligations to be good in and of themselves.

@fmf said
makes too much difference to be to too casually lumped together too.

Er... it makes too much difference to be lumped together too casually.

@ragwort said
@FMF

I think the topic is really about the mechanics of group psychology and the ideas and beliefs that drive it. Calling it doctrine doesn't change anything. There is socialist doctrine, environmental doctrine, capitalist doctrine as well as religious doctrine. Weinberg brought his atheism front and centre into his pronouncement when his objection could have been applied to philosophies across the board.

I think the topic is more about having a 'God figure' to whom good people willingly hand over their moral compass.

Football hooligans or politicians don't do that.

@fmf said
There could have been one of the Ten Commandments that said something along the lines of 'Let market forces do its thing by all means, and pay the poor and unfortunate as little as you possibly can if you want to, but thou shalt not own human beings as chattel.' However, despite Weinberg's objection to slavery seemingly being the topic that triggered his quote, this need not become yet another thread about slavery.

But this doesn't actually account for the necessity of slavery as an institution where there wasn't much liquid capital.

It doesn't account for the fact that people sold themselves into slavery, and that POWs couldn't just be released without expectign repirsal...

Indeed, this doesn't account for much.

@philokalia said
But this doesn't actually account for the necessity of slavery as an institution where there wasn't much liquid capital.

It doesn't account for the fact that people sold themselves into slavery, and that POWs couldn't just be released without expectign repirsal...

Indeed, this doesn't account for much.

If nobody else comes along who wants to discuss slavery with you on this thread, I suggest you start a thread about it.

It is directly pertinent to the thread, though.

Moreover, haven't we seen enough threads derailed with miscellaneous posts about hell? lol

@philokalia said
It is directly pertinent to the thread, though.

Well, maybe someone will want to discuss slavery with you. Be patient.

@fmf said
Well, maybe someone will want to discuss slavery with you. Be patient.

Haha, you were the one that seemed to be anxious about the topic and rather eager to cease discussing it yourself.

But thanks for your concern. ^^

@philokalia said
Haha, you were the one that seemed to be anxious about the topic and rather eager to cease discussing it yourself.

But thanks for your concern. ^^

Me "anxious" about slavery? No. We discussed your moral justification for slavery in March last year. It was a good discussion but it does not need to be reprised. I am not "anxious" about the topic of slavery at all.

On page 1, I offered what we might call "domestic abuse" and "female genital mutilation" ~ although the perpetrators would not call them that ~ as actions permitted or even encouraged by religious doctrine as examples of something that might put some flesh on the simplistic bones of the OP quote.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I think the topic is more about having a 'God figure' to whom good people willingly hand over their moral compass.

Football hooligans or politicians don't do that.

Football players, baseball players in their games have to know the rules of their games or what is the point? Drivers on the road should know the rules of the road before they start moving through traffic. If you don't know and its left to each one, who then can say anything is good or bad, good for you might involve somethings you like and desire, while looking at me those things you see in my life are wicked and evil If its left up to us then there would nothing but disagreement about two different moral compasses, each arguing about which way is really north.

The thing is we both know there is a north, but without a true north we are all aware of all of our compasses are off to suit each of us. Some very horrific actions were done and justified by some humanistic arguments or religious doctrine while people were working it out on their own.

We all need THE moral compass within, who can say this is the way walk in it.

@kellyjay said
We all need THE moral compass within, who can say this is the way walk in it.

Moral compasses are unique and form part of each human being's unique character. There is no "THE" moral compass.

Morality comes from a synthesis of nature and nurture. The nature aspect is still to some degree on the frontier of the human quest for knowledge.

As an agnostic atheist, I see your human conscience as possibly being evidence of a creator being but more probably it's a product of evolution.

I perceive your religious beliefs, however, as an element of nurture ~ something you have picked up from your human environment.

@fmf said
Moral compasses are unique and form part of each human being's unique character. There is no "THE" moral compass.

Morality comes from a synthesis of nature and nurture. The nature aspect is still to some degree on the frontier of the human quest for knowledge.

As an agnostic atheist, I see your human conscience as possibly being evidence of a creator being but more probab ...[text shortened]... liefs, however, as an element of nurture ~ something you have picked up from your human environment.

God within is THE moral compass, your denial doesn't change that. Left with your world view there isn't a moral compass, so nature provides the rules does it? You have watched what happens in nature to the weak and the strong, and that is the way of the world, kill or be killed, take what you want, if you can get away with it why not? Human conscience if it cannot hang its hat on something will be a rudderless ship without direction outside of what seems good at the time. There would be no defense against perversion regardless if we cannot compare it to something we all agree on. Your perceptions are yours, they would be without weight with me if there is nothing binding us together, if your not convenient why would or should I care what you think?

When the 10 Commandments came down in them we saw that each of us had a worth beyond the next guys desires. You were important, your life is precious to God, your property was important, your family was important, our actions and desires had boundaries. Without these what stops someone's heart from going after what another has if they think they can get away with it?

@kellyjay said
God within is THE moral compass, your denial doesn't change that. Left with your world view there isn't a moral compass, so nature provides the rules does it?

A synthesis of nature and nurture "provides the rules" - it creates a unique moral compass in each of us. Your religion is an element of nurture. If you'd been born in the street I live in, and then lived in this city or elsewhere on this island, you'd almost certainly be a Muslim.

@kellyjay said
When the 10 Commandments came down in them we saw that each of us had a worth beyond the next guys desires. You were important, your life is precious to God, your property was important, your family was important, our actions and desires had boundaries. Without these what stops someone's heart from going after what another has if they think they can get away with it?

Do you think religion can make good people do bad things sometimes?