Witness Lee's Local Church Cult

Originally posted by RJHinds

I believe Witness Lee is teaching truth mixed with error. That was the way that old serpent, the Devil, deceived Eve. Perhaps Witness Lee is indwelt with the spirit of the Devil.

By cherry picking some statements out of context and showing how some CREED gets knocked, you got convinced of that.

You have not shown what the error is that is mixed with the truth.
You have shown that you think a CREED is bothered because of something Witness Lee preached.

But I have proved that in most cases Witness Lee was saying what the Bible says.

So far I see you say it is an "error" to believe what Isaiah 9:6 says.
So far I see you argue that it is an "error" to believe what 1 Cor. 15:45 and 2 cor. 3:17 says.

We feel it is the truth to believe what these verses say even if it makes some systematic creed enthusiasts shift nervously in their chairs.

Originally posted by sonship

I believe Witness Lee is teaching truth mixed with error. That was the way that old serpent, the Devil, deceived Eve. Perhaps Witness Lee is indwelt with the spirit of the Devil.

By cherry picking some statements out of context and showing how some CREED gets knocked, you got convinced of that.

You have not shown what the error is ...[text shortened]... e verses say even if it makes some systematic creed enthusiasts shift nervously in their chairs.

I believe Mr. Lee is the one doing the cherry picking of verses out of context to come up with his unorthodox interpretations that are heretical according the the early Church fathers. Whereas, I am merely trying to keep my interpretation within orthodox Christian thinking.

I have proved that Mr. Lee will say whatever people will let him get away with and "revel in the nonsense of it all" as his student observed.

I only challenge the interpretation that Mr. Lee applies to some scriptures and not what the scriptures are actually saying.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I believe Mr. Lee is the one doing the cherry picking of verses out of context to come up with his unorthodox interpretations that are heretical according the the early Church fathers.

Thousands of messages over decades of planting churches and you probably have never heard one complete message by Witness Lee.

I bet you never read one book by Witness Lee.
I bet you never read one entire chapter of any book by Witness Lee.
I bet you never attended any meeting of a local church receiving ministry from Witness Lee.
I bet you never even read one outline or table of contents of a single book by Witness Lee.

And I bet you didn't know that Witness Lee and Watchman Nee were honored in a session of the US Congress on April 29th 2014 by the honorable Joseph R. Pitts from THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, a representative from the state of Pennsylvania.

Start with this portion as a sample of the Congressional record:

Mr. PITTS. Mr. Speaker, a little over four years ago my esteemed colleague from New Jersey, the honorable CHRIS SMITH, rose in this chamber to bring due attention to one of the great Christians of the twentieth century— the noted Chinese teacher and church-planter, Watchman Nee. Today, I rise to complete the circle on this compelling story by honoring Watchman Nee’s closest co-worker, Witness Lee. Together they labored tirelessly in China from 1932 until the conquest of mainland China by the Communist Red Army under Mao Tse Tung in 1949. Today, the story of Watchman Nee is somewhat well known, given his numerous writings that have become Christian classics, such as The Normal Christian Life and Sit, Walk, Stand. Capping his inspirational biography was his martyrdom in a Chinese labor farm in 1972.

Witness Lee’s story is less known in the West but is in no way less significant. Although Nee was the clear leader when they labored together in China, it was left to Witness Lee, to preserve and continue their work outside of China and to spread it far beyond the Chinese-speaking world. When it became apparent in 1949 that the Communists would prevail in China, Watchman Nee insisted that Witness Lee emigrate to carry on their work in Taiwan and throughout the Far East. Lee agreed. Subsequent developments not only validated Nee’s insight (he was imprisoned shortly thereafter, and the churches raised up under his and Lee’s ministry were forced underground), but also confirmed that their message and ministry had the potential to reach far beyond China.

More -

Witness Lee did not confine his work to Asia. In 1962 he came to North America and began to minister from Los Angeles, where he established Living Stream Ministry, the publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee in English and over fifty other languages. Witness Lee’s speaking and writing continued to emphasize ‘‘Christ as life’’ and God’s desire to ‘‘build His church’’ on the basis of the oneness of God’s people, rather than on any ethnic or cultural differences. This was the same message that he had learned from his spiritual mentor, Watchman Nee. Since the early 1960s the spread of the local churches under Lee’s ministry throughout the North and South America, Europe, and Africa has been remarkable. There are more than 4,000 churches and 400,000 believers meeting on every inhabited continent, including 200 churches and several thousand believers in Russia and the Russian speaking world.

http://lambfollower.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/congressional-record-on-watchman-nee-and-witness-lee/

You cont.

Whereas, I am merely trying to keep my interpretation within orthodox Christian thinking.

That is fine that you try to do that. But sometimes you may be simply looking for some "traditional flavor" as the scribes and Pharisees did too who opposed Christ and his apostles.

Jesus told them that on occasion they made null the word of God for the sake of mere religious tradition rather than Scriptural orthodoxy. They thought of course that they had their logical reasons too -

New American Standard Bible
And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

King James Bible
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

And you go on:

I have proved that Mr. Lee will say whatever people will let him get away with and "revel in the nonsense of it all" as his student observed.

No. Rather you have definitely proved that on this subject you have failed to see that some servants of God are not men pleasers. Rather for the sake of the nurturing the rich experience of Christians they are not afraid to emphasize those portions of the Scripture that serve God's need.

I think you came to your Internet Enter Key and without much two sided research jumped on a bandwagon in a biased and unverified way.

Whereas CRI, Christian Research Institute's Hank Hanagraff and Elliot Miller, who at first were fierce critics of Witness Lee, decided to go around the world and really find out the facts.

CRI’s reassessment was the result of an extensive primary research project that spanned six years and involved direct dialogue with representatives of Living Stream Ministry (the publisher of the writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee) and the local churches. The main series of articles in the Journal, written by Editor-in-Chief Elliot Miller, examined the teachings of Witness Lee and the local churches in light of criticisms published on the Internet in an open letter in 2007.2 The open letter consisted primarily of a call to Living Stream Ministry and those in the local churches to repent of teachings expressed in a series of isolated excerpts from the extensive ministry of Witness Lee. Elliot Miller’s articles contextualized the quotes, explained the theological concepts behind them, and showed how the open letter created a distorted perception of Witness Lee’s teaching.

And though these men pioneered criticisms of the local churches under their former leader Walter Martin, they now write after this six year project "We Were Wrong".

And the detailed responses to the Open Letter, especially to leaders Norman Giesler and Ron Rhodes, can be studied.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/index.html

Originally posted by sonship

I believe Mr. Lee is the one doing the cherry picking of verses out of context to come up with his unorthodox interpretations that are heretical according the the early Church fathers.

Thousands of messages over decades of planting churches and you probably have never heard [b]one complete message by Witness Lee.

I bet ...[text shortened]... , can be studied.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/index.html[/b]

Well, you would win all your bets. However, You haven't denied that what I quoted from the internet was not what Witness Lee wrote. In fact, you tried to defend those heretical statements.

I can see why many people that do not know the Trinity Doctrine very well would be fooled by Witness Lee's teaching on the Trinity. I don't see much difference in his teaching than that of the Oneness Pentecostals.

T.D. Jakes Embraces Doctrine of the Trinity, Moves Away from 'Oneness' View

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

"It is encouraging to see T.D. Jakes moving away from the heresy of modalism," said Malcolm B. Yarnell III, director of the Center for Theological Research at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. "However, we should pray for him and exhort him privately and publicly to move into biblical orthodoxy without equivocation.

Jakes stated he wants to have "dual affiliations" with both Oneness and Trinitarian churches. This is the goal behind his equivocation, and he relies on unique terminology to enable his dual theology. Although stating he is willing to use "persons" to describe the Trinity, he is also clear he would prefer not to do so. (There have been orthodox theologians who also registered difficulty with the term "person," but typically they object to modernist meanings attached to the term, meanings different from the classical Christian understanding. Jakes, however, is rejecting the term not because it has been misunderstood but because it is offensive to Oneness Pentecostals, whom he deems Christian.)

Instead of using the term "persons," Jakes has long confessed he believes the "one God" is "eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (see Potter's House Belief Statement at http://www.thepottershouse.org/Local/About-Us/Belief-Statement.aspx). Jakes then proceeds to use "manifestations" in ways he hopes that both Trinitarians and Unitarians might find acceptable. Jakes, moreover, argues that "manifestations" derives from 1 Timothy 3:16. But he misuses the term's meaning in that passage, wrenching it from its Christological context and transferring it to the Trinity. The only "manifestation" to which 1 Timothy 3:16 refers is the incarnation of God in Christ. God was "manifested" in the flesh of Christ; this Christ was "justified" or "vindicated" by the Spirit through the Resurrection; this Christ was "received up into glory." The manifestation of God was Christ in 1 Timothy 3:16, not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. The Father and the Spirit are indeed at work in this passage but not as "manifestations." Instead, the Father and Spirit work through the Son, who is God manifested in flesh so we can see and hear and touch Him. Jakes simply does not offer a proper exegetical basis for his unique theological term.

The point of 1 Timothy 3:16 is not to say that the Trinity is an undisclosed mystery but that the incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is the mystery of God now disclosed.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2012/january/td-jakes-embraces-doctrine-of-trinity-moves-away-from.html?paging=off

Originally posted by RJHinds

Well, you would win all your bets.

So I don't take you very seriously as knowing what you're talking about concerning Witness Lee's teachings.

You're "Wika - familiar" and not really familiar. You only know just enough to let you cling to traditional religious thoughts you feel comfortable about.

However, You haven't denied that what I quoted from the internet was not what Witness Lee wrote. In fact, you tried to defend those heretical statements.

There are not heretical statements. And they have been a lot healthier and edifying to thousands around the globe than your preaching about moon dust and the speed of light and sea salt and radiometric dating and dinosaurs on the ark and other Christless chatter to prove your Young Earth.

Where is the rich experience of Jesus Christ within all your chatter about a Young Earth ? It may be interesting, but I really need to know Now the Lord is the Spirit" - the "life giving Spirit" of Christ Himself imparting God's life into my daily living.

I don't really want to play hardball with you. But if you want to, we will.

I can see why many people that do not know the Trinity Doctrine very well would be fooled by Witness Lee's teaching on the Trinity. I don't see much difference in his teaching than that of the Oneness Pentecostals.

That is because of above, NO book read, No message heard, No outlined studied, No table of contents examined. But you have only the rantings of some jealous opposers who know how to isolate statements to alarm you.

You are gullible there concerning Witness Lee.
As you can see honest misgivings with statements in the Bible or in Wtiness Lee's teaching from it, we have no problem clarifying.

T.D. Jakes Embraces Doctrine of the Trinity, Moves Away from 'Oneness' View

Witness Lee never taught Modalism. Witness Lee's occasional use of the very phrase "three Persons" was shown to you, going back to the year I came into contact with Lee's ministry - 1974. That was the year he started his "Life Study of Genesis" the first Life Study of all 66 books of the Bible.

I was very fortunate to have come in at the beginning of his Life Study messages. He had been ministering already for years though.

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

I don't know much about Jakes, so appropriately I have no remark.
I do know a lot about what is in Witness Lee's books. And I have personally sent questions to him in writing and receive fellowship.

He was very humble. He said that he needed help to answer one of my questions and replied with the help of another co-worker in the ministry.

The fragrance of Christ really came from being around him. He lived what he preached. And what helped him to grow deeper into Christ he passed on to us. This cost him some persecution from jealous types.

"It is encouraging to see T.D. Jakes moving away from the heresy of modalism," said Malcolm B. Yarnell III, director of the Center for Theological Research at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. "However, we should pray for him and exhort him privately and publicly to move into biblical orthodoxy without equivocation.

Don't hold you breath expecting the local churches to retract anything that has been from the Bible and been a source of blessing to our experience of salvation.

That is very nice. But I am not saying anything about Jakes whom I do not know. Witness Lee I knew. And in a few books specifically on the trinity, the OUTLINE clearly PROVES that he intended to communicate that the Three of the Triune God were all eternal and all simultaneously in existence.

Let's see if we can get this into your head. The first example is by the co-workers associated with Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

IE.

The book - The Beliefs and Practices of the Local Churches, 1978

What I quote below is not the entire statement of faith of the local churches. I quote only the part concerning that which cannot be accused of being the Modalism you are unnecessarily afraid of coming from us.

We believe that the Holy Bible is the complete divine revelation verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that God is the only one Triune God-the Father, the Son, and the Spirit-co-existing equally from eternity to eternity.

IE. The Revelation of the Triune God According to the Pure Word of the Bible 1978

E. All Three Exist at the Same Time

The Father, Son, and Spirit all exist at the same time.

Notice John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth.” In these two verses we have the Son praying to the Father that the Father would send the Spirit. Hence, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all present at the same time.

In Ephesians 3:14-17 Paul says that he will pray the Father to grant us to be strengthened by His Spirit in our inner man that Christ may make His home in our hearts. In this passage we have the Father, the Spirit, and Christ the Son. All exist at the same time. The Bible does not say that the Father existed for a certain period of time and then the Son came; that after a certain period of time the Son no longer existed and was replaced by the Spirit. There is not a verse that says this. The Bible in this passage indicates that the Father listens to the prayer, the Spirit will strengthen the saints, and the Son, Christ, will make His home in their hearts. Here again, it is clear that all Three exist at the same time.

Second Corinthians 13:14 says, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” Here are mentioned the grace of Christ the Son, the love of God the Father, and the fellowship or communion of the Holy Spirit. All Three are present at the same time.

In the same booklet -

D. All Three Are Eternal

Some of the rumors and accusations claim that we do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are eternal. I do not know where the critics and accusers get such a thought. We want to declare to all that, in accordance with the Bible, we believe that the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Spirit also is eternal. We believe this and declare it because the Bible tells us so.
1. The Father Is Eternal

Isaiah 9:6 has the term the “everlasting Father.” The literal translation of the Hebrew phrase here is “Father of eternity” or “eternal Father.” Hence, the Father is eternal.
2. The Son Is Eternal

The Son also is eternal. Hebrews 1:12 says of the Son, “Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.” Hebrews 7:3 says that He has no beginning of days nor end of life, meaning that He is eternal. Eternal is that which has no beginning or ending. This is why a circle rather than a straight line is a sign of the eternal God. He has no beginning and no ending.
3. The Spirit Is Eternal

The Spirit also is eternal, for Hebrews 9:14 speaks of “the eternal Spirit.” Therefore, let everyone know that in accordance with the Bible, we declare that all Three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are eternal.

Somewhere above you said that Witness Lee seemed to say anything that would please people, or some such thing. The stupidity of the statement was staggering.

Lee spoke what was useful in enriching the believer's experience of God's full salvation. That included speaking of both the essential trinity and the economical trinity. That is stressing both that all three ____ are eternal and that each ____ lives in the other. That is that they are distinct but not separate because in God's outworking of His salvation He imparts Himself into man in stages involving His three "Persons".

Cont. latter

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

The "Southern Baptist" also could learn from Brother Witness Lee that to make a "Southern Baptist Church" is an act of the flesh, divisive, denominational and against the principle of one church for one city (Rev. 1:11).

How come they don't show a similar concern for that error ?

And this kind of exposure is often what causes some who realize they are in the wrong to want to find things to complain about in Witness Lee's messages.

This is a kind of anger or envy based upon being exposed by the light of faithful ministry of the word of God.

Cont. below

Originally posted by RJHinds

Jakes stated he wants to have "dual affiliations" with both Oneness and Trinitarian churches.

What Witness Lee labored to build was not Trinitarians churches of Oneness churches but local churches - one church for one city in many cities around the world.

We had a real master builder among us. Thank God the Lord blessed his labors.

This is the goal behind his equivocation, and he relies on unique terminology to enable his dual theology.

Theologians have recognized the two aspects of the Trinity for some time.
The three are co-existent and co-eternal and exist simultaneously. This makes Modalism impossible to teach as the Bible's revelation.

On the other hand we have two great becommings -
1.) The Word BECAME flesh (John 1:14)
2.) The last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).

Rather than twist away the clear meaning of these statements, we believe them. They show God's economical move. They show God branching out and into man by means of His triune being.

Do you know what happens to believers when they begin to stand upon the fact in faith that Christ is living in them ? It is very positive. That is not some representative of Christ, but as the Bible SAYS - Christ living in us.

So it is foolish to oppose a teacher emphasizing ALSO that Christ is the life giving Spirit indwelling us.

Try it. Try STANDING upon the simple statements of the Bible without fearing what harm it will do to your objective creedal statments.

Although stating he is willing to use "persons" to describe the Trinity, he is also clear he would prefer not to do so.

Are you INSISTING that if one does not always use "Persons" then one is not orthodox in teaching salvation ?

If you make this foolish rule it must be because you regard man's creeds to be of more importance that the Bible. IE. the Creed uses the term "Persons" so that is the ONLY way that a Chistian can talk.

That is dangerously close to what Christ warned the religionists of -
making void the word of God for the sake of traditions of men (Mark 7:13).

Because of "three Persons" I cannot believe that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ? Not on your life.

Because of "three Persons" I cannot believe that the Son given to us is the Eternal Father? Not on your life.

Rather "Three Persons" may have its uses and be helpful. But it does not REPLACE the words of the Bible.

I do not mind borrowing "Person". I do not mind borrowing "Persons". I will not stress them to the point of cooling DOWN my realization that the Son is the incarnation of the Father and the Life Giving Spirit is the indwelling Jesus Christ.

(There have been orthodox theologians who also registered difficulty with the term "person," but typically they object to modernist meanings attached to the term, meanings different from the classical Christian understanding. Jakes, however, is rejecting the term not because it has been misunderstood but because it is offensive to Oneness Pentecostals, whom he deems Christian.)

When I wrote above of the principle of antichrist, I wrote that it is that principle that DENIES some aspect of Christ.

Modalism has too that principle of antichrist at work if it denies that the Son obeys the Father, was sent by the Father, communed with the Father, and is in existence simultaneously with the Father.

Get this. Witness Lee taught BOTH aspects of this mysterious God for our experience.

I have no sympathy for Oneness Pentacostalism. And in the Living Stream Ministry magazine "Affirmation and Critique" there is one issue which debunks Oneness Pentacostalism up one side and down the other.

It is not hard to realize that there is a one-in-three side of the Triune God just as well as there is a three-in-one side.

Instead of using the term "persons," Jakes has long confessed he believes the "one God" is "eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (see Potter's House Belief Statement at

This entire line of reasoning you are attempting seems to be a "Guilt By Association" tactic.

I do not know a lot about T.D. Jakes one way or the other.
I do know that God wants me to meet with the local churches.
And I do know that this ministry from Witness Lee has only done marvels to help me enjoy the experience of Christ and God's salvation both vertically with God and horizontally with other members of the Body of Christ.

And for the sake of a creed we will never deny that the Son given is called Eternal Father and the Lord is the Spirit.

Some have said "Then if the Son is the Father then you teach the Father died on the cross."

We say what the Bible says. It never says that the Father died on the cross. So there is really not need to say it. It does say that the Son is called the Eternal Father. So there is a need to affirm this.

No, I cannot find any passage saying that the Father suffered and died on the cross. HOWEVER ... for that reason I am not willing to deny that the word DOES SAY that the Son given will be called Eternal Father.

So it is mysterious and He is wonderful - Full of Wonder.

Your last paragraph I may speak to in a post devoted to it.
It is not completely accurate in every sense. And I am not refering to the TD Jakes matter of which I know nothing much.

But we will look at 1 Tim. 3:16 because not only God in Christ as manifestation is revealed there. God in Christ IN the church is ALSO manifested.

The term "godliness" applies throughout the "pastoral epistles" to being like God and living in God. It is not restricted to only the incarnation of God in Christ. It is also manifestly applied to the living of Christ in the church.

And this is most probably why "taken up in glory" is listed AFTER preached among the nations. For in incarnation Christ ascended to heaven first and THEN was preached among the nations. But in the case of the church of godliness, though the head Christ was taken up, the rapture of the church being taken up in glory comes at the end of the gospel preaching age.

In the next post.

Originally posted by RJHinds

From the Life Study of Genesis Message 87.

bb. The Church Being the Pillar
of the Truth

In the New Testament we are also told that the whole church is the pillar. First Timothy 3:15 says, "But if I delay, that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." It is difficult to understand the word truth in this verse. Some say that truth means doctrine. Although this is correct, it is inadequate. In Greek, the word truth denotes something real and solid. Hence, truth means reality. However, truth is not simply a solid reality, but also the expression of this reality. Truth is not vain doctrine; it is the expression of reality, doctrine constituted with reality and conveying that reality. The church is the pillar bearing the truth, that is, bearing the expression of the reality.

The reality borne by the church is revealed in l Timothy 3:16: "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness, who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." The truth in verse 15, the expression of the reality, is the mystery of godliness in verse 16. The mystery of godliness is God manifested in the flesh. When Christ was on earth, He was God manifested in the flesh. Outwardly, He was a man in the flesh; inwardly, in actuality and in reality, He was God. God in His reality was manifested in the man Jesus. God was reality, and Jesus as a man in the flesh was the manifestation of God. This is the very truth mentioned in verse 15, and this is the mystery of godliness. Godliness means God-likeness. The mystery of godliness is the mystery of God-likeness. When Jesus lived on earth as a man in the flesh, the people who beheld Him saw in Him the likeness of God. Although He was a man, He expressed God. This God-likeness was a mystery. The mystery of godliness must be continued in the church today.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Cont. with 1 Timothy 3:16

The church is the continuation of the mystery of godliness. In message eighty-six we saw that Christians have a mysterious part in their being. In principle, the whole church should be a mystery. If some unbelievers come into our meetings and survey the situation, they will not be able to understand it. Although we consider ourselves common and simple, the unbelievers will say, "What is this? What attracts them to these meetings? There is no entertainment or outstanding speaker. Who are these people? They seem to be neither modern nor old-fashioned. We cannot say what kind of people they are." The reason for this is that we are mysterious. Do not think that I am referring to our outward appearance. I am referring to something of God manifested in us. Because this is real yet invisible, it is difficult to define. If the church is merely pure, clean, gentle, humble, and holy, we have missed the mark. The church must be the continuation of the manifestation of God in the flesh. To some of our critics, the continuation of the manifestation of God in the church is a form of evolution into God. To accuse us of teaching evolution is a slander to us and a blasphemy to the Lord. The proper church life is a continuation of the manifestation of God in the flesh. This manifestation is the truth held by the church as the pillar. If as the church we hold this testimony, we shall be able to say that we are the continuation of the mystery of godliness.

We do not want to express our own holiness or anything of ourselves. We want only to express our God and to see Him manifested in our flesh. We admit that we are still flesh, but the very God who lives in our spirit will be manifested, expressed, in our flesh. This manifestation must not merely be individual, but corporate. The proper church life is the corporate manifestation of God in the flesh.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Cont.

The only way the church can be the corporate expression of God in the flesh is by transformation. Everyone in the church must be transformed. Occasionally we refer to the older brothers or to the younger brothers. However, in the church we should not think of some as older ones and of others as younger, for we all are being transformed. Although we may not yet be fully transformed, we are at least in the process of transformation. Forget your age and concentrate upon the fact that you are in the process of transformation. If I still think of myself as a Chinese, I am finished. In the church there is neither old nor young, Chinese nor American, Jew nor Greek (Col. 3:11). In the church we are being changed by having Christ added into us. You should not be an old brother or a young brother, but a brother into whom Christ is being added daily. The older ones may need to remind the younger ones not to call them older brothers, and the younger ones may need to ask the older ones not to speak of them as young brothers. Furthermore, we should not refer to some brothers as "Yankees" and to others as Southerners. There are neither "Yankees" nor Southerners in the church; there are only transformed brothers. There is no black, white, yellow, red, Jew, or Greek; instead, there are only the transformed people—people into whom Christ is being added daily and who are the expression of God in Christ. This is the church as the pillar supporting and bearing the mystery of godliness.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Originally posted by sonship
Cont.

The only way the church can be the corporate expression of God in the flesh is by transformation. Everyone in the church must be transformed. Occasionally we refer to the older brothers or to the younger brothers. However, in the church we should not think of some as older ones and of others as younger, for we all are being transformed. Alt ...[text shortened]... ng and bearing the mystery of godliness.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

"We say what the Bible says."

Bingo! We need to stay with the narrative, always comparing scripture with scripture, because the Word of God interprets itself for us. It is God speaking directly to us though His written Word. If we are going to say what the Word of God says, then we should use the Word of a God to say it!

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

To work effectually in us it is and must be the Word of God.

Originally posted by josephw

Bingo! We need to stay with the narrative, always comparing scripture with scripture, because the Word of God interprets itself for us.

So it is OK if I say the Son given is to be called the Eternal Father? I hope so because it really lifts my enjoyment of Christ and God up.

Is it OK for me to stand upon this utterance? I can believe at the same time that God is so wonderful that Jesus loved the Father and the Father loved the Son.

Somehow amazingly?
Sir ... can I believe Isaiah 9:6 too ?

It is God speaking directly to us though His written Word. If we are going to say what the Word of God says, then we should use the Word of a God to say it!

Then, sir, it is okay to say "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" . This does tremendous benefit to my moment by moment abiding in Christ.

I can believe the last Adam became a life giving Spirit and also believe that Jesus asked the Father to send the Spirit of reality, another Comforter.

Can I stand on both truths as both are uttered in the word of God ?

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Amen.

To work effectually in us it is and must be the Word of God.

Amen. You must be right. That's my experience.

So then, let us not be afraid if some creed gets its toes stepped on.
Keep the creed. It may have some handy things to help in it.

But keep closer the Word of God, as you seem to be exhorting me.

"Keep your creeds close. But keep your Scripture closer" to borrow from the " God Father " (pun intended).

That's all Witness Lee was saying.

In essence - "Keep you creeds close. But keep the word of God closer!"

Originally posted by sonship
That's all Witness Lee was saying.

In essence - "Keep you creeds close. But keep the word of God closer!"

As members one of another, in the church, we by faith walk after the spirit according as our faith allows.

But we must guard against heresy. The rest is our liberty in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

The "Southern Baptist" also could learn from Brother Witness Lee that to make a "Southern Baptist Church" is an act of the flesh, divisive, denominational and against the principle of one church for on ...[text shortened]... ased upon being exposed by the light of faithful ministry of the word of God.

Cont. below

I was baptized in the Southern Baptist Church, but that does not mean I believe it is the perfect Christian Church as you seem to believe for Witness Lee's Local Church.

I don't see that there is envy or anger toward Witness Lee and the Local Church. I only see the desire to expose the false and heretical teachings of a cult leader.