Witness Lee's Local Church Cult

Originally posted by RJHinds

Reference: "Now the Lord is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)

There is nothing wrong with that translation, however, I believe that the KJV translation is more helpful because it reminds us to look back to the contest by using the word "that" instead of "the" as follows:

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Whether "that Spirit" or "the Spirit" it is the Lord. And in Second Corinthians the Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ -

"Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1:2)

" ... as you also are ours in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1:14b)

"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." ( 4:5a)

Now WHO is "THAT Spirit" if you prefer that rendering ?

Paul is referring to the Spirit that gives life - " Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2:6)

Is there another Divine Spirit that gives life besides the Third of the Triune God - the Holy Spirit ? Of course not. So "THAT Spirit" or "THE Spirit" refers to the Holy Spirit of the new covenant - the New Testament.

The Lord is that Spirit.

You should also notice that verse 17 speaks of both aspects of the Spirit. That is the Lord IS the Spirit and the Spirit is OF the Lord.

"And the Lord is the [or that] Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom."

Witness Lee did no harm to God's people to teach them that Jesus Christ lives in the Christians as the Spirit Who gives life, freeing them. This is quite marvelous that Witness Lee would inform believers as to how they may experience freedom and transformation.

" ... and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord and being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (17b,18)

Satan has stirred up some Pharisee like traditionalists because Satan hates that Christians would be transformed by the Lord Spirit. Transformation by the Lord Spirit from one degree of glory to the next, to the next, by degrees will be his demise as the church is built up.

You need to wake up and "smell" the transforming Spirit - the Lord is that Spirit.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I already mentioned that the orthodox Christian view is that, in context, this suggests that the Lord is the spirit of the old testament law and prophecy just as the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy mentioned in Revelation 19.

You presume to announce the "orthodox Christian view" as changing "The Lord is the Spirit" to "the Lord is [NOT] the Spirit" ?

Who said that is the "orthodox Christian view" ?

So you say the Lord is some OTHER Spirit besides the Holy Spirit?

So you have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit AND the OTHER Spirit whom the Lord is.

So instead of a Trinity you have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the other Spirit of Second Corinthians chapter 3.

Why do you have two Divine Spirits in your so-called "orthodox Christian view" ?

Let me bring you back to the book of Revelation in the seven letters to the seven churches. In the beginning of every letter it speaks of Christ as the One saying something. But at the end of each letter it exhorts us to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

This scheme is repeated SEVEN times. One example suffices:

Revelation 2:1 - "And to the messenger of the church in Ephesus write: These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, He who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands."

That is obviously the Son of God- the Son of Man. But the letter concludes this way:

Revelation 1:7 - "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches ..."

This is concept of the Spirit being the one to hear as the Son of God speaks is repeated for each of the letters. The Lord IS the Spirit.

So you have both aspects of the mysterious Trinity. The Son and the Spirit are distinct. But the Son speaks and we are told to hear what the Spirit says.

Witness Lee taught both aspects of the Trinity - the essential side and the economical side.

The Spirit that gives life is the Holy Spirit. And that Spirit is even called "the Spirit OF life" -

"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Romans 8:2 RcV)

Other versions?

English Standard Version
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

New American Standard Bible
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

King James Bible
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

(Revelation 19:10 KJV)

The small s on "spirit of prophecy" is best understood that the translators were refering to a human spirit. That is a regenerated human spirit -

" ... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6b)

The small s human spirit, in regeneration is born of the capital S Holy Spirit Who is the Third Person of the Triune God. I don't think Revelation 19:10 can in any way be used to negate that "the Lord is the Spirit" in Second Corinthians.

And where Christ's spirit is recognized as Lord, there is liberty, that is, freedom from the bondage of the letter of the law, because the spirit of the law has been clearly revealed in Christ Jesus. The spirit of the law is not the person of the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure you yourself understand what you are saying here.

The Spirit whom the Lord is is the Spirit of the new covenant Who gives divine life.

"How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory" ( 2 Cor. 2:8)

The new covenant ministers of the Spirit have a ministry in further glory than the ministry of the letter of the law which was a ministry of condemnation.

"Who has made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life." (v.6)

The Spirit that gives life is the life giving Spirit that the last Adam became in 1 Cor. 15:45. And you have to get use to the fact that many teachers agree besides Witness Lee that "the Lord is the Spirit" giving divine life according to the new covenant.

I pointed out Williston Walker, Vincent, and Dean Alford. And there are others.

Augustus H. Strong in his Systematic Theology wrote of the mysterious Trinity

"This oneness of essence explains the fact that, while Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as respects their personality, are distinct subsistences, there is an intercommunion of persons and an immanence [indwelling] of one divine person in another which permits the perculiar work of one to be ascribed ... to either of the others, and the manifestation of one to be recognized in the manifestation of the other. The Scripture representations of this intercommunion prevent us from conceiving of the distinctions called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as involving separation between them. This intercommunion also explains the designation of Christ as "the Spirit," and of the Spirit as "the Spirit of Christ," as 1 Corinthians 15:45; "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit ..." The personality of the Holy Trinity are not separable individuals. Each involves the others; the coming of each is the coming of the others. This the coming of the Spirit must have involved the coming of the Son."

Originally posted by sonship

No, I am not going to get scissors to cut out the verses. I am just going to cut out Lee's "unholy" interpretations. Four in One is just another way to deny the Trinity Doctrine. Why can't you see this guy is a false teacher?

You have not pointed out any falsehood with [b]John 17 in Christ's mighty prayer for the fulfillment of God' ...[text shortened]... you should patiently and prayerfully consider the words of the New Testament in John 17.[/b]

Jesus is speaking of the intimacy of love. He wishes the same love that the Father and Son have for each other will also be the same love among all believers so there is a equality of love in unity. But the intimacy of love requires that there be more than ONE Person. So the Son can not be the same Person as the Father and neither can we, else there can be no love for one another as Jesus wants.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Reference: "Now the Lord is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)

There is nothing wrong with that translation, however, I believe that the KJV translation is more helpful because it reminds us to look back to the contest by using the word "that" instead of "the" as follows:

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is libert ...[text shortened]... uilt up.

You need to wake up and "smell" the transforming Spirit - the Lord is that Spirit.

I already explained the orthodox Christian view of this. If you would rather believe Mr. Lee, then that is up to you. However, Mr. Lee seems to be bordering on teaching that we can become as God, similar to the Mormans. Remember that the desire of Satan was to be God.

Originally posted by sonship

I already mentioned that the orthodox Christian view is that, in context, this suggests that the Lord is the spirit of the old testament law and prophecy just as the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy mentioned in Revelation 19.

You presume to announce the "orthodox Christian view" as changing [b]"The Lord is the Spirit" ...[text shortened]... of the others. This the coming of the Spirit must have involved the coming of the Son." [/quote][/b]

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(John 4:24 KJV)

The overall lesson about worshipping the Lord in spirit and truth is that worship of God is not to be confined to a single geographical location or necessarily regulated by the temporary provisions of Old Testament law. With the coming of Christ, the separation between Jew and Gentile was no longer relevant, nor was the centrality of the temple in worship. With the coming of Christ, all of God’s children gained equal access to God through Him. Worship became a matter of the heart, not external actions, and directed by truth rather than ceremony.

http://www.gotquestions.org/worship-spirit-truth.html#ixzz36Tne5RvO

Obviously, there are different definitions of "spirit" and not all refer to the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. I was trying to point out what "THAT spirit" would be referring to when I went back to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

Also Jesus did not mean He was three Persons when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life." It is obvious that He was referring to the ideas. But Paul's wording is not that obvious without going back and studying the context. We are prohibited from saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, so obviously that can not be the correct understanding.

In other words, it was Jesus who identified that the spirit of the law was more important when He violated the letter of the law on the Sabbath by healing people. That is what I believe "Jesus is THAT Spirit" really means. It is not meaning Jesus is the very SAME Holy Spirit as Mr. Lee claims.

I am NOT claiming that there is another Spirit in the Godhead like the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. We humans are identified as body, soul, and spirit, but we never say we are the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost do we?

The Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is just the name given to the Comforter, the third person of the Trinity. It does not mean that God the Father is not in essence Spirit or that God the Son is not in essence Spirit. In my opinion, the reason that Spirit is capitalized is because Jesus is being identified with the Spirit of the Law, not that He is also the Holy Spirit.

Jesus can be referred to as the last Adam that became a life-giving Spirit because it is by believing in Him that we can be saved and gain eternal life. It does not have to mean that Jesus became the Person of the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. In the Trinity, it is the same Spirit in all THREE Persons of the Godhead.

Capitalizing Spirit does not mean it has to be referring only to the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. I usually capitalize He when I make any reference concerning God. God could refer to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. I also usually capitalize He even when I refer to Jesus as a human and not deity.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus is speaking of the intimacy of love. He wishes the same love that the Father and Son have for each other will also be the same love among all believers so there is a equality of love in unity. But the intimacy of love requires that there be more than ONE Person. So the Son can not be the same Person as the Father and neither can we, else there can be no love for one another as Jesus wants.

In John 17 Jesus is speaking of love no doubt. But He also speaks of oneness

1.) Oneness in the Divine Name by the eternal life (vs. 6-13)

2.) Oneness through sanctification by the Holy Word (vs. 14-21)

3.) Oneness in the Divine Glory for the expression of the Triune God (vs.22-24).

Originally posted by RJHinds
I already explained the orthodox Christian view of this. If you would rather believe Mr. Lee, then that is up to you. However, Mr. Lee seems to be bordering on teaching that we can become as God, similar to the Mormans. Remember that the desire of Satan was to be God.

You are presuming that you have sole authority to announce to all Christians that your opinion is the "orthodox Christian view" when some careful teachers of the present and past would not agree with you.

If the consummation of our salvation is that we are to marry Christ, then it is obvious that we have to be brought into a state that matches what He is.

"Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is. (1 John 3:1)

So why is it wrong to teach Christians that "we shall be like Him" ?
Crying "Mormonism" is throwing the baby our with the bath water.

Paul said we are being transformed by glory to glory to glory into the same image as Christ -

"But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

So is your "orthodox Christian view" that we are NOT being transformed into the same image from glory to glory ? I reject that denial of the words of Scripture and rather agree with Witness Lee's pointing out this transformation.

Do you think to be "like Him" means we will have sandals like Him?
It means that we, corporately, will match Him in order to be able to "marry" the Lamb, the Redeeming Godman.

"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)

Both in plain teaching and in sign and allegory the Holy Bible speaks of man's salvation as being saved to the point of matching what Jesus Christ IS. How else could it speak of our marrying Him as His eternal counterpart?

"Come here, and I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." (Rev. 21:9,10)

This shows that our matching of Christ the Lamb is of God's salvation. We are not the source of this union but it is out from God. So it is not at all the self reaching to be like God that Adam was tempted with.

Witness Lee was careful to teach that this matching of what Christ is is not a number of things which are non-communicable attributes of God.

1.) We will not be an object of worship as God.
2.) We will not be Creators of universes as God.
3.) We will not be omnispresent as God.
4.) We will not be omniscient as God.
5.) We will not be omnipotent as God.

Christ remains the "Head" of this union. And there are uncommunicable aspects of God that man will never have as the Head alone possesses.

But it is the word of God that "we shall be like Him" . And it is the word of God that by degrees of glory, successively, gradually by process we are being transformed into the same image by beholding and reflecting the glory of Christ.

The fear of Mormonism should not be used by you to negate what our Bible tells us.

Now let's see what orthodox church fathers would agree with this lofty view of full salvation. For one the whole of Greek Orthodoxy has long taught that deification is the goal of God's salvation. They call it theosis.

In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is both a transformative process as well as the goal of that process. The goal is the attainment of likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to eastern Orthodox teaching theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through a synergy (or cooperation) between humans' activities and God's uncreated energies (or operations).[1][2]

So Witness Lee was preceeded by over a thousand years by Greek Orthodox theologians who taught coming into union with God in God's salvation.

So we should look more carefully into the Scripture and not cry "Mormonism" because some presume to announce what "the orthodox Christian view" has to be.

Look also under Patristic [ my bolding] writings on the subject of Divinization here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_%28Christian%29

Selected information below:

Irenaeus (c. 130-200)

"[T]he Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."[Primary 1]
"'For we cast blame upon [God], because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; although God has adopted this course out of His pure benevolence, that no one may impute to Him invidiousness or grudgingness he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." "[Primary 2]
"For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God."[Primary 2]

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)

"[T]he Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God."[Primary 3]
"For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God"[Primary 4]
"[H]is is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.” For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God"[Primary 4]
"[H]e who listens to the Lord, and follows the prophecy given by Him, will be formed perfectly in the likeness of the teacher—made a god going about in flesh."[Primary 5]
"And to be incorruptible is to participate in divinity..."[Primary 6]

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)

"[Men] were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, and yet they, becoming like Adam and Eve, work out death for themselves; let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and of having power to become sons of the Highest."[Primary 7]

Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120-190)

"For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. Again, if He had made him mortal, God would seem to be the cause of his death. Neither, then, immortal nor yet mortal did He make him, but, as we have said above, capable of both; so that if he should incline to the things of immortality, keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as reward from Him immortality, and should become God..."[Primary 8]

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235)

"And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God: for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality."[Primary 9]
"If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead."[Primary 10]

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373)

"Therefore He was not man, and then became God, but He was God, and then became man, and that to deify us"[Primary 11]
"for as the Lord, putting on the body, became man, so we men are deified by the Word as being taken to Him through His flesh."[Primary 12]
"For He was made man that we might be made God."[Primary 13]

Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395)

"For just as He in Himself assimilated His own human nature to the power of the Godhead, being a part of the common nature, but not being subject to the inclination to sin which is in that nature (for it says: "He did no sin, nor was deceit found in his mouth), so, also, will He lead each person to union with the Godhead if they do nothing unworthy of union with the Divine."[Primary 14]

Augustine of Hippo (c. 354-430)

"'For He hath given them power to become the sons of God.'[John 1:12] If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."[Primary 15]

Maximus the Confessor

"Nothing in theosis is the product of human nature, for nature cannot comprehend God. It is only the mercy of God that has the capacity to endow theosis unto the existing... In theosis, man (the image of God) becomes likened to God, he rejoices in all the plenitude that does not belong to him by nature, because the grace of the Spirit triumphs within him, and because God acts in him."[2]

My point here is to show concepts of God's full salvation as deification or divinization have long been espoused by teachers before Witness Lee was attacked for doing so.

I am not saying everything said by these teachers is exactly we in the local churches might say in the exactly same way. I am saying that the concepts of full salvation leading to oneness with God in life and nature has long been seen in the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
You are presuming that you have sole authority to announce to all Christians that your opinion is the "orthodox Christian view" when some careful teachers of the present and past would not agree with you.

If the consummation of our salvation is that we are to [b]marry Christ, then it is obvious that we have to be brought into a state that ma ...[text shortened]... f full salvation leading to oneness with God in life and nature has long been seen in the Bible.[/b]

We may be like Him, but we want be HIM. That is all I am saying.

Originally posted by RJHinds

(John 4:24 KJV)

The overall lesson about worshipping the Lord in spirit and truth is that worship of God is not to be confined to a single geographical location or necessarily regulated by the temporary provisions of Old Testament law. With the coming of Christ, the separation between Jew and Gentile was no longer relevant, nor was the centrality of the temple in worship. With the coming of Christ, all of God’s children gained equal access to God through Him. Worship became a matter of the heart, not external actions, and directed by truth rather than ceremony.

No one is arguing about against these interpretations.
These points are beside the point of Who is the Spirit in Second Corinthians chapter 3.

Obviously, there are different definitions of "spirit" and not all refer to the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. I was trying to point out what "THAT spirit" would be referring to when I went back to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

In the immediately preceeding verse Paul writes - "Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Person who takes the veil away from over their hearts. The Lord Jesus Christ is the One who removes that veil and gives them freedom from the bondage of the law. And the Lord Jesus is the [or that] Spirit.

This is why in verse 14 Paul writes that the veil over the then present day Jewish opposers to the new covnenat "is being done away in Christ" .

When the those still under bondage to the law of Moses turn their hearts to the Lord Jesus, the veil over their hearts is done away in Christ. Christ removes the veil. And the new covenant Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus Christ in His "pneumatic" form.

Also Jesus did not mean He was three Persons when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life."

I do not know why you mentioned this.

It is obvious that He was referring to the ideas. But Paul's wording is not that obvious without going back and studying the context.

In John 14 the "He" of verse 17, refering to the Spirit of reality suddenly becomes the "I" of verse 18 who will not leave the disciples but is coming to them.

The Spirit of reality is therefore the Lord Jesus in His "pneumatic" form.

It may be difficult to use human language to force this mysterious matter into a systematic formula. But we should not deny the plain words of Scripture and sacrifice its utterance for our limited creeds.

Sure Jesus said of the Holy Spirit - "But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of reality, who proceeds from the Father, He will testify concerning Me." (15:26)

So we have He and Jesus, the Spirit of reality and Jesus as distinct.
How about we ALSO affirm with equal conviction 14:17,18 where the Spirit is Jesus Himself in another form?

" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."

Why do you persecute Christians because they want to believe and teach both passages of the word of God?

You believe that "the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). Why do you call us a cult of an "Unholy Trinity" because we want to cast our hope in both John 15:26 AND John 14:17,18 ?

These critics must be mad with Witness Lee for some other reason.
Maybe it is just jealousy.

We are prohibited from saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, so obviously that can not be the correct understanding.

So the Bible is prohibited from saying "Now the Lord is the Spirit"?

But we are not prohibited from saying the Lord is some OTHER spirit, perhaps the spirit of the law of Moses ?

This is strange indeed. We are not prohibited from affirming both aspects of the mystery. The Lord is the Spirit and the Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord, sent by Him and sent by the Father.

We in the local churches do not believe something extra. You do not believe enough . You want to negate certain clear utterances of the Bible for the sake of keeping some systematic creedal formulate in place.

The pure word of God takes a higher place than any systematic axiom invented by theology teachers.

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the [of that] Spirit" .

We say "AMEN!". If it troubles some creed of systematic theology that is too bad. With Martin Luther we would say that our conscience is held captive by the word of God.

In other words, it was Jesus who identified that the spirit of the law was more important when He violated the letter of the law on the Sabbath by healing people. That is what I believe "Jesus is THAT Spirit" really means. It is not meaning Jesus is the very SAME Holy Spirit as Mr. Lee claims.

Before Witness Lee taught that the Lord is the Spirit, Basil of Caesarea (A.D. 320-379) seems to have agreed.

Wherefore let them hear yet another testimony which distinctly calls the Spirit Lord. "The Lord," it is said, "is that Spirit"; and again "even as from the Lord the Spirit." ... Why does he speak thus? Because he who abides in the bare sense of the letter, and in it busies himself with the observance of the law ... which is done away by the presence of Christ, ... like Moses taking off the veil ... He, too, turns from the letter to the Spirit ... and spiritual contemplation with the turning to the Lord. He, then, who in the reading of the Law takes away the letter and turns to the Lord - and the Lord is now called the Spirit ..."

The Apostle Paul interchanged "Christ" with both "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ" in Romans 8:9-11:

" But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:9,10)

The Spirit of God has to be the Third of the Trinity.
The Spirit of Christ has also to be the Third of the Trinity.
Christ HAS to be the Second of the Trinity.

So you have Paul writing that "the Spirit of God" is a title interchangeable with "the Spirit of Christ" And the title "the Spirit of Christ" is interchangeable with "Christ" .

So the Spirit of Christ is Christ there.

"But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ..."

It should be clearly obvious to you that Paul is using these terms in an interchangeable way - "The Spirit of God" = "the Spirit of Christ" = "Christ" Himself.

So "The Lord is that Spirit" is a further affirmation of the Apostle Paul's realization.

If you believe as all Christians should that Jesus Christ lives in you then you have to admit that He does so by means of being "the Spirit of Christ". And that Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity and is identical with "the Spirit of God".

How can Christ be in you if He is not the Spirit ?

I am NOT claiming that there is another Spirit in the Godhead like the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. We humans are identified as body, soul, and spirit, but we never say we are the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost do we?

We are spirit and soul and body as you say and as "First Thessalonians 5:23 says.

The Third Person of the Triune God has become "one spirit" with the Christian's human spirit in regeneration.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:7)

So we know that the Lord has become our life and is indwelling us because the Holy Spirit has become "one spirit" with our born again human spirit.

This is how we know that we are children of God, because the Holy Spirit bears witness with our regenerated human spirit.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:16)

Do you know what benefit it will do to believers to affirm that the Lord is with our spirit, that the Lord is one spirit with our spirit, and that Jesus Christ the Lord actually lives in us ? This is tremendously faith building and leads to overcoming.

So Witness Lee does a great service to the people of God by teaching that the Lord is the Spirit Who is one with our spirit. The Lord Jesus lives in us as the "life giving Spirit" .

While you say God is unhappy with such a Christian teaching, I would say that God is quite pleased to see His children gain grace to overcome by proclaiming the truth of the New Testament.

Why do you oppose this? Paul's last word in the New Testament was that the Lord Jesus Christ is with our spirit -

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Timothy 4:22)

Because Jesus in His pneumatic form is the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ the Second Person of the Holy Trinity can be with our regenerated spirit - "The Lord be with your spirit" .

Stop opposing the New Testament, why don't you ?

In my opinion, the reason that Spirit is capitalized is because Jesus is being identified with the Spirit of the Law, not that He is also the Holy Spirit.

How can the Lord be with our spirit (2 Timothy 4:22) unless He is the Hol...

How can the Lord be with our spirit (2 Timothy 4:22) unless He is the Holy Spirit ?

With what Spirit are we "one spirit" in First Corinthians 6:17 ?

I believe that we are "one spirit" with the Holy Spirit.
And in this way the Lord can be with our spirit.
" The Lord be with your spirit "

For the Spirit of the Lord, is Christ. He said that He and His Father would come to make an abode in His lovers.

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The key to this indwelling Triune God is the life giving Spirit who is the Lord in His pneumatic form.

Begin to stand upon this truth and see how it empowers your Christian life to believe that Jesus Christ and His Father are with you, in you, made joined to you, and are making an abode with you. And teach others the same.

Then you would be like Witness Lee, a true minister of the new covenant.

I stop here.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] (John 4:24 KJV)

The overall lesson about worshipping the Lord in spirit and truth is that worship of God is not to be confined to a single geographical location or necessarily regulated by the temporary provisions of Old Testament law. With the coming of Christ, the separation between Jew and Gentile was no longer relevant, nor was the centrality ...[text shortened]... /quote]

How can the Lord be with our spirit [b](2 Timothy 4:22) unless He is the Hol...[/b]

You don't seem to understand why I quoted the lesson to the following verse:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It was not only to point out that spirit and truth does not mean Persons or the Holy Spirit, but also to point out that Lee's Local Church idea is a misunderstanding of what worship in spirit and truth really means.

Lee is saying that the Doctine of the Trinity that has been approved by Church Councils is wrong and he is free to teach Tritheism or modalism because they are both Biblical, in his opinion. However, as I said before the Trinity Doctrine specifically forbids such teachings.

A ten year member of Lee's Local Church said the following:

"The doctrinal matters are harder to pin on them, because Lee has said just about everything and its opposite. I even remember him bragging in trainings about being able to contradict himself and get away with it. The example I recall is him advocating tritheism in one long message, and in the next, modalism. He said both were biblical. He seemed to revel in the nonsense of it all."

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Testimoniesoftruth.htm


Mr. Lee can teach whatever he wishes, but to claim he is teaching Trinitarism is incorrect. He needs to come up with a new name, like Leeism or something.

I do not know anything about Basil of Caesarea, but the time period seems to be around the time that many heretical teachings concerning Christ and the trinity was a problem. This person may have been one of those people. This was the reason for the bishops from the Churches met to decide on such matters. This is one reason that the Jehovah's Witness Arianism is rejected today as a cult teaching.

You are free to believe as you will, but for me Mr. Lee is just another cult leader and his teachings should be called Leeism or something other than Christianity.

The following is what I found out about Bishop Basil:

Basil attended the Council of Constantinople in 360. He at first sided with Eustathius and the Homoiousians, a semi-Arian faction who taught that the Son was of like substance with the Father, neither the same (one substance) nor different from him. The Homoiousians opposed the Arianism of Eunomius but refused to join with the supporters of the Nicene Creed, who professed that the members of the Trinity were of one substance ("homoousios" ). However, Basil's bishop, Dianius of Caesarea, had subscribed only to the earlier Nicene form of agreement. Basil eventually abandoned the Homoiousians, and emerged instead as a strong supporter of the Nicene Creed.

Basil then had to face the growing spread of Arianism. This belief system, which denied that Christ was consubstantial with the Father, was quickly gaining adherents and was seen by many, particularly those in Alexandria most familiar with it, as posing a threat to the unity of the church. Basil entered into connections with the West, and with the help of Athanasius, he tried to overcome its distrustful attitude toward the Homoiousians. The difficulties had been enhanced by bringing in the question as to the essence of the Holy Spirit. Although Basil advocated objectively the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, he belonged to those, who, faithful to Eastern tradition, would not allow the predicate homoousios to the former; for this he was reproached as early as 371 by the Orthodox zealots among the monks, and Athanasius defended him. He maintained a relationship with Eustathius despite dogmatic differences.

Basil died before the factional disturbances ended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_of_Caesarea

Athanasian Creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Originally posted by sonship
How can the Lord be with our spirit [b](2 Timothy 4:22) unless He is the Holy Spirit ?

With what Spirit are we "one spirit" in First Corinthians 6:17 ?

I believe that we are "one spirit" with the Holy Spirit.
And in this way the Lord can be with our spirit.
" The Lord be with your spirit "

For the Spiri ...[text shortened]...

Then you would be like Witness Lee, a true minister of the new covenant.

I stop here.[/b]

Let me see if this works for you. From the Athanasian Creed:

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

The Creed declares:

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.

Therefore, the Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit. And the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.

But we must not forget this from the creed:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.


Your Question: How can the Lord be with our spirit (2 Timothy 4:22) unless He is the Holy Spirit ?

My Answer: The same way that Grace be with you (2 Timothy 4:22).

Your Question: With what Spirit are we "one spirit" in First Corinthians 6:17 ?

My Answer: This means we become in harmony with the Spirit of Christ by obeying His commandments.

The Error of Insisting on three 'Persons' as a Litmus Test of Orthodoxy.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/Persons-as-test-of-orthodoxy.html

A sample of the article:

Augustus H. Strong, whom Geisler and Rhodes referred to as "the noted Baptist theologian," said:

The term ‘person’ only approximately represents the truth. Although this word, more nearly than any other single word, expressed the conception which the Scriptures give us of the relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is not itself used in this connection in Scriptures, and we employ it in a qualified sense, not in the ordinary sense in which we apply the word ‘person’ to Peter, Paul, and John.6

J. Scott Horrell, Professor of Theological Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, notes:

If the term nature is difficult when we speak of God, the term person is all the more complex. Theologians such as Tertullian, the Cappadocians, Augustine, and Aquinas differ in their concept of person, even if modern and postmodern conceptions vary considerably more.7

According to a recent book by Thomas Weinandy, a Catholic theologian and lecturer in History and Doctrine at the University of Oxford:

A good deal of discussion is taking place among contemporary theologians on the suitability of designating as ‘persons’ the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.8

The problem with the term Person is not a new one. In a sermon in 1775, John Wesley commented:

I dare not insist upon anyone’s using the word "Trinity" or "Person." I use them myself without any scruple, because I know of none better: But if any man has scruple concerning them, who shall constrain him to use them? I cannot.9

sonship (from gswilm's ID)

Jaywill posting as sonship posting as gswilm.

Deep.