10 Jul 08
Originally posted by stokerwe do have the gift to change god's words. it is called reason. and we do use the gift. think of how we don't do all the crazy stuff from the old testament like kill the guilty and his family for certain crimes. if we can change rules that are obviously flawed why not change others as well?
yes i know
if im strait-jacketed by the teachings then i accept this, but the teaching, "tho shalt not" are more than older and still enforced, we have not the gift to change the words just because we say they are not in line with our ways. if on the other hand there was a message from them who god blesses and thier has been a lot since he was raised, non ...[text shortened]... s about 50/50 male female have said women should be given the authority to give the sacrament.
god said eye for an eye and then came jesus who said turn the other cheek. so if change is possible why are we so afraid of it? is it because we do not want to sin before god? or is it because we are afraid to think for ourselves so we let others who claim they are under the holy spirit do the thinking for us?
10 Jul 08
Originally posted by stokerThe way you write is making it difficult for me to understand.
yes i know
if im strait-jacketed by the teachings then i accept this, but the teaching, "tho shalt not" are more than older and still enforced, we have not the gift to change the words just because we say they are not in line with our ways. if on the other hand there was a message from them who god blesses and thier has been a lot since he was raised, non ...[text shortened]... s about 50/50 male female have said women should be given the authority to give the sacrament.
Whats this .. "tho shalt not" are more than older ?
Do you mean "Thou shall not.. " and whats 'older' about ?
How is that phrase connected to anything said about women. There is no commandment in the NT about women. They are guidelines.
Not everything thats written in the Bible needs to be treated with the same degree of seriousness.
13 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ZahlanziI am only a slave to the Lord, and yes, I like being his slave. I am not, however, a slave to my husband. Look up the definition of a slave, I am not the property of my husband, nor am I entirely under the domination of him. If I were then even if he aske me to do something that is agaist the Lord then I would have to do, however, I do not have to, therefore, I am not a slave to my husband.
i am sorry to say so but do you like being a slave? it is my theory that your husband is a very decent man. so you don't realize under these rules you are his slave because he treats you with the respect you deserve as a human being and his equal.
do you care however that thousands of women suffer abusive, alcoholic, idiot men because paul says so? th of listening. if i then ask for an opinion from my inferior is like i am doing them a favor
I never said, nor did Paul, that women had to stay with the abusive husband. She can leave, however, she is to stay unmarried or be reconsiled to her husband.
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
"We" did not change the rules, Christ fullfilled the Laws. We no longer stone anyone because we too have sin. And where in the Bible does it say to make a widow a nun? To my knowlege, 'nun' is not in the Bible, it is something the Catholics came up with. Jesus' deciples picked corn on the Sabbath and Jesus never said they were breaking any law. We are not to change anything, only the Lord has that power, however, some believe we can and they try but that does not make it okay.
I never said women were inferior, nor do I see where Paul said it. Infact Paul said that they were equal, however, there still has to be order in the home and congregations.
If you feel that if you tell someone to be quiet you are considering that person to be less than you and their opinion is unworthy of listening to, then it is your own convictions that are getting to you.
14 Jul 08
One hears that the last Pope who died upon entering heaven asked St Peter if he could spend his afterlife learning how to read the scriptures in the original Aramaic. This was, of course, granted him.
Some time later, it is said St. Peter heard a cry of great anguish coming from the "library" and on investigating found the late Pope curled up in the fetal position, crying bitterly.
"It's all a mistake, it's a mistranslation," said the stricken Pope, "the word is "celebrate."
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by pritybettaif you feel the word slave is not fitting the description of the woman from the bible, how about indentured servant?
I am only a slave to the Lord, and yes, I like being his slave. I am not, however, a slave to my husband. Look up the definition of a slave, I am not the property of my husband, nor am I entirely under the domination of him. If I were then even if he aske me to do something that is agaist the Lord then I would have to do, however, I do not have to, theref ...[text shortened]... inion is unworthy of listening to, then it is your own convictions that are getting to you.
if you marry an abusive man you say you can leave him. but you are denied a chance at happiness with another man because you cannot marry the second, decent man and you certainly cannot live with him because you are married with the first and it would be a sin.
if paul said they are equal in rights, and order has to be maintained, why not go by the fact of he who is more fit should rule. if the husband is a simple man, a janitor and the wife is a PHD professor at let's say MIT, should the wife still obey the husband even if he suggests they invest all their money in something the PHD professor knows it will go bust? should this couple make their home on a beach just because the husband said so? if the wife is smarter, why should the husband make the decisions?
if the woman is to keep quiet and not speak until spoken to, does that mean she is respected? if she is not allowed to speak her opinion how can that mean that her opinion is respected? if no matter how good her opinion is, it is ultimately the man who makes the decisions how can that mean she is not considered inferior? "suffer not a woman to teach" this practically says that a woman teacher is almost unbearable and unthinkable. why? because god said so?
Paul said that a widow should be in mourning and not remarry and devote her life to only God even if she is 20 years old. if she didn't had any children and couldn't live for them then she is practically a nun, even if the term is not in the bible.
you say that jesus' disciples picked corn on Sabbath. so are you saying that jesus changed the law. now i am asking, did jesus do anything in his life that he expected us not to do? when he washed the feet of his apostles he expected us to be humble as well. when he helped people he expected us to help people as well. why then are we so afraid of changing rules we see as wrong when jesus changed them as well. why don't we stone people to death anymore? we changed that rule. we changed many rules. but the rules that we didn't change we call them the lord's word. that is hypocritical.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by pritybettai am sorry that you were raised as you were. you won't live an unhappy life because of this rigid moral codes(perhaps you are quite happy). the problem is that you cannot conceive a situation where the answer is not in the bible. and if such situation arises you will look and look until you find the most abstract verse that could fit any number of situations and use that as an answer to your problem. instead of using that which god has given you, reason. you see a situation where a rule(paul's rule, not even god's) is clearly wrong and you do nothing about it saying people smarter than you have already decided your life 2000 years ago(namely paul).
I am only a slave to the Lord, and yes, I like being his slave. I am not, however, a slave to my husband. Look up the definition of a slave, I am not the property of my husband, nor am I entirely under the domination of him. If I were then even if he aske me to do something that is agaist the Lord then I would have to do, however, I do not have to, theref ...[text shortened]... inion is unworthy of listening to, then it is your own convictions that are getting to you.
times change, rules change. although the basics of the christian religions remain the same, love, compassion, modesty, some do not. now i say a woman is fit to rule. you say this is heresy and blasphemy.
i say i am right and you are wrong. i can't change the way you think, sadly. and more sadly you will probably teach your daughters to obey their husbands as well. hope they get a good husband in the lottery of life as you did.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by Zahlanziwe can not change gods words if they are from god then its eternal only god can change our understanding. if by reason there is something not covered like cloneing etc then you may have some gift of knowledge, the other rules you mentioned was changed by jesus and his chosen 12, then saints helped understand our failings.
we do have the gift to change god's words. it is called reason. and we do use the gift. think of how we don't do all the crazy stuff from the old testament like kill the guilty and his family for certain crimes. if we can change rules that are obviously flawed why not change others as well?
god said eye for an eye and then came jesus who said turn the ot ...[text shortened]... or ourselves so we let others who claim they are under the holy spirit do the thinking for us?
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by Rajk999[1] thou shalt not is from mosses time. sorry about the spelling mistake.
The way you write is making it difficult for me to understand.
Whats this .. "tho shalt not" are more than older ?
Do you mean "Thou shall not.. " and whats 'older' about ?
How is that phrase connected to anything said about women. There is no commandment in the NT about women. They are guidelines.
Not everything thats written in the Bible needs to be treated with the same degree of seriousness.
[2] think you will find i was making another point in conection to my answer.
[3] commandment only guidelines well the guidelines are well pointed out so we have not the authority to change/remove/add to anything within what we just wish
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by stokeroh, so only jesus can change rules. or his apostles. or the saints. tell me, how do you find this even remotely logical? so if someone proposes something beneficial to the society, we should wait until he is sanctified before following his suggestion?
we can not change gods words if they are from god then its eternal only god can change our understanding. if by reason there is something not covered like cloneing etc then you may have some gift of knowledge, the other rules you mentioned was changed by jesus and his chosen 12, then saints helped understand our failings.
in the bible it is written that the descendants of Ham(noah's son), the blacks, are to serve the whites. did abraham lincoln became a saint since we listen to his idea, that maybe all men are created equal?
joan of arc was sanctified in the 20th century i think. so if she had made a suggestion in her time, we should have waited until now to be allowed to follow that suggestion.
if i say that we should all shave our heads and wear pink clothes, and then i get somehow sanctified by the catholic church, we should all do so, else is a sin?
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziThis post of your's just goes to show how much man(man kind) wants to be in charge instead of trusting in the Lord. Why would the Lord let Paul say something that is in the Bible if it were not to be followed? Do you think that God would have been able to keep such things from being written in his Word if He himself didn't think we needed such rules?
if you feel the word slave is not fitting the description of the woman from the bible, how about indentured servant?
if you marry an abusive man you say you can leave him. but you are denied a chance at happiness with another man because you cannot marry the second, decent man and you certainly cannot live with him because you are married with the first ...[text shortened]... but the rules that we didn't change we call them the lord's word. that is hypocritical.
indentured servant:
–noun American History. a person who came to America and was placed under contract to work for another over a period of time, usually seven years, esp. during the 17th to 19th centuries. Generally, indentured servants included redemptioners, victims of religious or political persecution, persons kidnapped for the purpose, convicts, and paupers.
No, I am not an indentured servant. Sorry to disappoint you.
If a woman leaves her abusing husband and marries another she is committing fornication because her first husband is still alive. That is why she is not to marry again.
The education level does not make someone more fit to rule. There is no certainty in investments, Furthermore, she is a PHD professor and she makes enough money to make up for the loss. Making a home on the beach is not a bad thing if it is done right, there are plenty homes that has been built long ago on beaches and are still there.
Who said women are to not speak untill spoken to, to my knowledge that only happens if the husband says so.
Just because the woman is not to teach the husband does not mean she is unbearable and unthinkable.
where does Paul say a widow should be in mourning, not remarry, and devote her life to only God if she is under 20? In fact, he said they should marry.
1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
1Ti 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
1Ti 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
1Ti 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
BTW, did you know that the word "widow" in the NT refers to a woman without a husband, not only a husband that has died?
Widow:
G5503
??´?a
che¯ra
khay'-rah
Feminine of a presumed derivation apparently from the base of G5490 through the idea of deficiency; a widow (as lacking a husband), literally or figuratively: - widow.
Yes, Jesus said he was the ruler of even the Sabbath, so yes, I'd say he changed the law about the Sabbath. In fact, I believe Christ is the Sabbath, for when we are with Christ we are in resting. And NO, I do not believe he did anything he expects us not to do. However, Christ is the head of us, therefore, we are not to change anything he has set forth. Jesus has the power to change the rules, we do not. We are his servants. And NO, "we' did not change any rule, the Lord did. Furthermore, those who do change the rules are not changing anything, they are rebelling against the Lord.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziWhere does the Bible say that the descendants of Ham were black? If he was the son of Noah, and Noah's other sons, Sham and Japheth, were white(as you say) then how is it that ham and his descendants were black?
oh, so only jesus can change rules. or his apostles. or the saints. tell me, how do you find this even remotely logical? so if someone proposes something beneficial to the society, we should wait until he is sanctified before following his suggestion?
in the bible it is written that the descendants of Ham(noah's son), the blacks, are to serve the whites. ...[text shortened]... , and then i get somehow sanctified by the catholic church, we should all do so, else is a sin?
Joan of Arc was a Catholic, and Catholics are not Christian. However, I will not go into that on this thread.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziDid you know that Abraham Lincoln was not for the social and political equality of blacks and whites? Here is a quote by him that many do not want to be seen by the public.
oh, so only jesus can change rules. or his apostles. or the saints. tell me, how do you find this even remotely logical? so if someone proposes something beneficial to the society, we should wait until he is sanctified before following his suggestion?
in the bible it is written that the descendants of Ham(noah's son), the blacks, are to serve the whites. ...[text shortened]... , and then i get somehow sanctified by the catholic church, we should all do so, else is a sin?
"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters
or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."
-- Abraham Lincoln
Here are some sites you may want to check out about him.
http://reformed-theology.org/southern/lincoln.htm This one is form this site: http://reformed-theology.org/southern/right.htm
http://www.civilwarhistory.com/_/lincoln/Abraham%20Lincoln%20on%20Race.htm
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by stokerI asked a relevant question early on in this thread; Do you believe that the canon is closed? If its open, then we must be aware of how God is revealing Him/Herself to us. If it is closed, then we must be extremely careful in our translations.
we can not change gods words if they are from god then its eternal only god can change our understanding. if by reason there is something not covered like cloneing etc then you may have some gift of knowledge, the other rules you mentioned was changed by jesus and his chosen 12, then saints helped understand our failings.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziAnd if we follow this, pretty soon love,compassion,and modesty(this one will change much much more I'm sure) will change too. With this line of reasoning.
i am sorry that you were raised as you were. you won't live an unhappy life because of this rigid moral codes(perhaps you are quite happy). the problem is that you cannot conceive a situation where the answer is not in the bible. and if such situation arises you will look and look until you find the most abstract verse that could fit any number of situatio ...[text shortened]... ty, some do not. now i say a woman is fit to rule. you say this is heresy and blasphemy.
.
There are some things that never change and some that never should. And if it does change it is mostly for your own convenience(pleasure) and not because it is better.