1. Joined
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    21 Apr '12 22:31
    I sometimes wonder about the apostles who were brutally murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ and his message. I wonder that if (as some say) they were fabricating his resurrection, surely they wouldn't die for something they knew was a lie?

    If you are religious, would you die before renouncing your beliefs?

    If you are not religious, what is worth dying for in your opinion?
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    21 Apr '12 23:06
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I sometimes wonder about the apostles who were brutally murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ and his message. I wonder that if (as some say) they were fabricating his resurrection, surely they wouldn't die for something they knew was a lie?

    If you are religious, would you die before renouncing your beliefs?

    If you are not religious, what is worth dying for in your opinion?
    Josh McDowell/CS Lewis-type apologetics lives on.

    I think it's quite possible for a person to die for something they know is a lie. For example, maybe they thought the lie was a justified means of spreading a belief system that they deemed beneficial to humanity. Also, they had invested their lives in spreading this belief. They had given up their jobs and their families. If it failed, there was nothing left for them.

    I believe in the right to self-defense for both nations and people, if there is an imminent threat. There is always the possibility that you will die while trying to defend yourself or others. I would think this is a worthy cause.
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    21 Apr '12 23:48
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I sometimes wonder about the apostles who were brutally murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ and his message. I wonder that if (as some say) they were fabricating his resurrection, surely they wouldn't die for something they knew was a lie?

    If you are religious, would you die before renouncing your beliefs?

    If you are not religious, what is worth dying for in your opinion?
    I think any such choices are artificial until the real thing comes along.
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    22 Apr '12 06:46
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I wonder that if (as some say) they were fabricating his resurrection, surely they wouldn't die for something they knew was a lie?
    I see theists lying on this site all the time. They lie about all sorts of things to do with their religion. Does this mean they are not really religious and are closet atheists? Does it mean they would not die for their religion?
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    22 Apr '12 06:511 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Josh McDowell/CS Lewis-type apologetics lives on.
    I've not read anything by Josh McDowell, although I did read a Narnia book once. I'm still not convinced about the existence of fawns, although I have evidence of the existence of trolls.
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    22 Apr '12 06:571 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I think it's quite possible for a person to die for something they know is a lie. For example, maybe they thought the lie was a justified means of spreading a belief system that they deemed beneficial to humanity. Also, they had invested their lives in spreading this belief. They had given up their jobs and their families. If it failed, there was nothing left for them.
    This supposition is not a reason to presume someone would die for what they knew was a complete lie. I think all the apostles died horrible deaths, surely one or two would have just stepped down from the plate to save their lives, like Peter did just that right after Christ's execution.
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    22 Apr '12 07:001 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I believe in the right to self-defense for both nations and people, if there is an imminent threat. There is always the possibility that you will die while trying to defend yourself or others. I would think this is a worthy cause.
    Completely agree. Although there will be religionists here (such as JWs) who not only disagree on a 'worthwhile' basis, but also on a spiritual/doctrinal one.
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    22 Apr '12 07:04
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I see theists lying on this site all the time. They lie about all sorts of things to do with their religion. Does this mean they are not really religious and are closet atheists? Does it mean they would not die for their religion?
    I see people from most avenues of belief (including atheists) lying on this site.

    I don't know who would die for their beliefs; even if they post here that they would can we put it to the test? No. Perhaps some of the religionists here will post their 'intent' here so we can discuss it.

    What are you prepared to die for twhitehead?
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    22 Apr '12 07:06
    Originally posted by JS357
    I think any such choices are artificial until the real thing comes along.
    Agreed, but we can talk about cognitive intent and the principle.
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    22 Apr '12 07:42
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What are you prepared to die for twhitehead?
    Possibly family or someone I love. Nothing else I can think of.

    I am not convinced that the apostles had a direct choice 'declare the resurrection a lie or die'. I don't even know for sure what it was that the apostles preached. None of them left us any writing. All we have is third party claims much of which is based on Paul, who based much of his beliefs on a vision he had.

    People are stubborn. Once people convince themselves that a given belief is what they believe in, they will do anything to defend it, maybe even die for it. Look at all the creationists here, or all those who think the Bible is the absolute word of God and must be true word for word. They are willing to look totally ridiculous to everyone else, willing to lie etc, all because they have invested so much into an idea they cannot back out.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    22 Apr '12 16:27
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I've not read anything by Josh McDowell, although I did read a Narnia book once. I'm still not convinced about the existence of fawns, although I have evidence of the existence of trolls.
    We surely know "fawns" exist, they are the young of deer.

    Perhaps you meant "fauns"?
  12. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Apr '12 16:36
    Originally posted by divegeester
    This supposition is not a reason to presume someone would die for what they knew was a complete lie. I think all the apostles died horrible deaths, surely one or two would have just stepped down from the plate to save their lives, like Peter did just that right after Christ's execution.
    Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one. The trouble with saying "no one would die for something they knew was a lie" is that it's too simplistic. A belief system may contain a few lies and many truths, in the eyes of the teacher. So, what is he really dying for - the few lies, or the many truths?

    I think you mean that Peter 'stepped down from the plate' after the arrest of Jesus, not the death of Jesus. That was when Peter denied him three times, correct?

    I would like to know how many apostles were given the chance to escape death by denouncing their faith. Maybe some were not given the option. If they were, I would think that some would have chosen to avoid death out of fear, rather than whether they believed all of their own teachings.
  13. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Apr '12 16:40
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Completely agree. Although there will be religionists here (such as JWs) who not only disagree on a 'worthwhile' basis, but also on a spiritual/doctrinal one.
    I am sympathetic to the JW position even if I do not share it. War sucks. I wish we never had to do it. I am opposed to most of the wars my country is fighting and has fought since WWII.
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    22 Apr '12 19:421 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    This supposition is not a reason to presume someone would die for what they knew was a complete lie. I think all the apostles died horrible deaths, surely one or two would have just stepped down from the plate to save their lives, like Peter did just that right after Christ's execution.
    From what I can tell, you think that all the apostles were "brutally murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ and his message" and that they had an opportunity to save their lives by renouncing their faith.

    What evidence do you have that the above is true?

    I found the following written by J B Phillips which is not in agreement with the above:
    http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN500APOSTLES%20FATE.htm
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    22 Apr '12 20:32
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    We surely know "fawns" exist, they are the young of deer.

    Perhaps you meant "fauns"?
    No I meant young deer. I KNOW Mr Tumnus exists!
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