Originally posted by Grampy Bobbyhttp://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pascal.html
PASCAL"S WAGER
Blaise Pascal entertained all of these same preliminary questions,
logical contradictions and obstacles as well. Perhaps you're already
familiar with the classic conclusion of his life long search for absolute
truth, referred to by scholars for centuries as "Pascal's Wager"...
#1. If I believe in God as revealed i ...[text shortened]... tal. Yes, you will live at one of two addresses for all eternity.
Choice is up to you.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby1 - The same argument goes for every religion in the world.
PASCAL"S WAGER
Blaise Pascal entertained all of these same preliminary questions,
logical contradictions and obstacles as well. Perhaps you're already
familiar with the classic conclusion of his life long search for absolute
truth, referred to by scholars for centuries as "Pascal's Wager"...
#1. If I believe in God as revealed i ...[text shortened]... tal. Yes, you will live at one of two addresses for all eternity.
Choice is up to you.
2 - #1 is erroneous. You have something to lose: time and principles. Believing any God goes against my logic and perception of reality. I wouldn't give up my reasoning for any of these gods we see nowadays. They're so pesky and mundane, I find it incredible how someone actually believes the phony stories.
3 edits
Absolute truth pre-existed our birth. The whole knowable body of it will
still be alive and well and available after we are placed in the ground.
During the brief interim, we apprehend it or not to our benefit or peril.
We are not its source. That secure anchor point is outside ourselves.
Edit: All religion is man made... Lucifer's counterfeit. Christianity is
not a religion. It is a relationship of harmonious rapport with God.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyChristianity is not a religion???
Absolute truth pre-existed our birth. The whole knowable body of it will
still be alive and well and available after we are placed in the ground.
During the brief interim, we apprehend it or not to our benefit or peril.
We are not its source. That secure anchor point is outside ourselves.
Edit: All religion is man made... Lucifer's counterfeit. Christianity is
not a religion. It is a relationship of harmonious rapport with God.
That's the problem with you people. Always trying to me something more then you really are. Now trying to elevate from other religions.
No! Christianity is a religion, and is far from being the best of religions.
Maybe I'm wrong and you only need to re-check the definition of religion.
Originally posted by serigadoSerigado, if you are presently conflict addicted and itching for a nightly fight, you really picked the wrong guy to mess with, because I'm
Christianity is not a religion???
That's the problem with you people. Always trying to me something more then you really are. Now trying to elevate from other religions.
No! Christianity is a religion, and is far from being the best of religions.
Maybe I'm wrong and you only need to re-check the definition of religion.
going to disappointment you. You may wish to read C.S Lewis' "Mere Christianity" at your convenience. Stay safe. Be well. -Bobby 🙂
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAbsolute truth pre-existed our birth, ok, yet let's take a look how you and I are getting there differently...
Absolute truth pre-existed our birth. The whole knowable body of it will
still be alive and well and available after we are placed in the ground.
During the brief interim, we apprehend it or not to our benefit or peril.
We are not its source. That secure anchor point is outside ourselves.
Edit: All religion is man made... Lucifer's counterfeit. Christianity is
not a religion. It is a relationship of harmonious rapport with God.
You take the debunked arguments of Blaise Pascal as "gospel truth" if you don't mind the pun, and furthermore seem to believe the junk and bunkum put forward in a book of questionable authorship, written by men for men, with no independant verification and is perfectly self-sustaining and impervious to all criticism not due to its truth but due to its circularity.
I approach truth through the construction of models fo the world around me which I test continuously. Every test I do which the model passes is a step towards that truth, the more successful my models are at passing independant tests and surviving ALL criticism, the more confident I can be that the model is a close approximation to reality.
Unlike you and many others, I am comfortable with the fact that no man can know the truth. We can try to get as close to it as possible though. You need to invent a man that you then call the source of truth, the representation of truth. But that's simply inventing the truth, and if you invented it, can you really call it truth?
Now, try to hold tight to that anchor point and stop squirming about, because as soon as you start BSing us with "christianity is not a religion", you're in serious need of an anchor point... to reality.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAvoiding an argument is the perfect way to not losing it.
Serigado, if you are presently conflict addicted and itching for a nightly fight, you really picked the wrong guy to mess with, because I'm
going to disappointment you. You may wish to read C.S Lewis' "Mere Christianity" at your convenience. Stay safe. Be well. -Bobby 🙂
I can just say any statement I feel like, as stupid as I want, and then escape all critique by avoiding discussion.
If you don't want debate or discussion don't make such bold statements in a discussion forum.
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Originally posted by serigadoYour mind at present is closed and opposed to learning the truth, because of the unlearning that would be required. I have neither the
Avoiding an argument is the perfect way to not losing it.
I can just say any statement I feel like, as stupid as I want, and then escape all critique by avoiding discussion.
If you don't want debate or discussion don't make such bold statements in a discussion forum.
right nor the desire to convince you to step outside of your present comfort zone or to intrude upon the excercise your own free will.
Edit: Truth by definition is both fragile and bold... not unlike the minor miracle of blades of grass growing from the surface of a busy
concrete sidewalk. Truth is hidden, in a sense, so that those who prefer falsehood will not be bothered by it (God doesn't coerce) nor
be able to find it (God doesn't toss pearls to swine) so to speak. Most amazing fact of all is that, at first blush, truth never seems true.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhy is truth 'fragile'? If something is true, shouldn't it withstand all skepticism?
Your mind at present is closed and opposed to learning the truth, because of the unlearning that would be required. I have neither the
right nor the desire to convince you to step outside of your present comfort zone or to intrude upon the excercise your own free will.
Edit: Truth by definition is both fragile and bold... not unlike the mino ...[text shortened]... swine) so to speak. Most amazing fact of all is that, at first blush, truth never seems true.
Do you really think that swaying someone to your side of a debate affects their free will? I don't.
Why should truth never seem true at first blush? Aren't some truths more obvious than others?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyFirst off, in order to learn I must "unlearn", you know, there's this great book set in the 80's that's ALL about that.
Your mind at present is closed and opposed to learning the truth, because of the unlearning that would be required. I have neither the
right nor the desire to convince you to step outside of your present comfort zone or to intrude upon the excercise your own free will.
Edit: Truth by definition is both fragile and bold... not unlike the mino ...[text shortened]... swine) so to speak. Most amazing fact of all is that, at first blush, truth never seems true.
Furthermore on your whole "god does not coerce free will" buxom, I'll reiterate the point you either missed or ignored earlier despite a second reference to it...
"I have to ask, does that include the time when he (the god you refer to) coerced the pharaoh in exodus and hardened his heart so that he would not let Moses' people go? (Ex. 9:12 - Ex. 10:1,20,27 - Ex. 11:10 - Ex. 14:4,8,17)
You know, so that he could get a few more plagues in for good measure? "
How does hardening the heart of someone so that they make a decision the way god wanted them to count as not coercing their free will?!
Your idea of seeking the truth is not only intellectually dishonest and patently dangerous, it's downright pathological in its abandonment of core principles of decent human behaviour. People who don't think like you are suddenly referred to as swine? Yeah, you're a real poster boy for your divine truth there.
Originally posted by SwissGambitFaith is fragile, by pitching faitha s truth and making "truth" fragile, he can try to make a claim for the moral high ground as a preemptive defence from otehrwise justified criticism.
Why is truth 'fragile'? If something is true, shouldn't it withstand all skepticism?
Do you really think that swaying someone to your side of a debate affects their free will? I don't.
Why should truth never seem true at first blush? Aren't some truths more obvious than others?
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Yeah, I know, but answering rhetorical questions is a hobby of mine.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyBy the contrary. My mind is always open to learning the truth. I have no prejudices whatsoever towards anything. I never take anything for granted or as true.
Your mind at present is closed and opposed to learning the truth, because of the unlearning that would be required. I have neither the
right nor the desire to convince you to step outside of your present comfort zone or to intrude upon the excercise your own free will.
Edit: Truth by definition is both fragile and bold... not unlike the mino ...[text shortened]... swine) so to speak. Most amazing fact of all is that, at first blush, truth never seems true.
I'm in no comfort zone. By the contrary , my position is the most uncomfortable one. I don't rely on external sources or supports nor I make leaps of reasoning to jump to a safeheaven where everything is good and right.
You must use real arguments instead of that fast-food rhetoric. My position is strong because it was built on true reasoning and logic. But I'm willing to remake it from scratch every time, everyday. Just give me the arguments, not some loose missionary rhetoric.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIf i might ask a question, what is the difference between 'absolute truth' and 'truth'?
Absolute truth pre-existed our birth. The whole knowable body of it will
still be alive and well and available after we are placed in the ground.
During the brief interim, we apprehend it or not to our benefit or peril.
We are not its source. That secure anchor point is outside ourselves.
Edit: All religion is man made... Lucifer's counterfeit. Christianity is
not a religion. It is a relationship of harmonious rapport with God.
Originally posted by agrysonGod gave the pharaoh over to a reprobate mind as a courtesy to the repetitive refusal of his
First off, in order to learn I must "unlearn", you know, there's this great book set in the 80's that's ALL about that.
Furthermore on your whole "god does not coerce free will" buxom, I'll reiterate the point you either missed or ignored earlier despite a second reference to it...
[b]
"I have to ask, does that include the time when he (the god you refer ...[text shortened]... referred to as swine? Yeah, you're a real poster boy for your divine truth there.
negative volition to consider even giving a hearing to Divine Truth. The pharaoh's own decisions
hardened his own heart (kardia, the right lobe of the mind) with the result that a vacuum was created,
which sucked in all manner of human viewpoint and falsehood as a cheap substitute. The gears
jammed. Emotional revolt and blackout of the soul dominated the viewpoint of his spiritual death.
Omniscience had read pharaoh's tape in eternity past and simply incorporated it in His Plan.