Zoroaster-Judaism

@caissad4 said
Where in my OP did I claim that Jews became polytheistic ?? Where did I claim that Jewish monotheism comes from Zoroastrianism ??
Your reply is not relevant to the OP.

Oh, I apologize. I simply had heard before some line about how the monotheism of Judaism may have come from Zoroastrianism, and I had assumed that this was the case of what you were arguing.

So please, enlighten me...

What beliefs did the Jews receive from the Zoroastrians?

Or is this just supposed to be a thread without any real content -- just a statement about "Zoroaster-Judaism," and I have to fill in the rest..?

@philokalia said
Oh, I apologize. I simply had heard before some line about how the monotheism of Judaism may have come from Zoroastrianism, and I had assumed that this was the case of what you were arguing.

So please, enlighten me...

What beliefs did the Jews receive from the Zoroastrians?

Or is this just supposed to be a thread without any real content -- just a statement about "Zoroaster-Judaism," and I have to fill in the rest..?

Again, read the OP. You will have to actually research the subject yourself (as I have done). If you or any other Christians are actually spiritual seekers ( I doubt that) ,there should be interest in knowing the extent to which your religious beliefs were added as time passed and were never part of the original Abrahamic faith. Seriously, ideas added by man later are not the "divine word of God".

@philokalia said
If you believe so much in evidence, and hard evidence, why do you not post some of the evidence that Jewish monotheism comes from Zoroastrianism in this thread.

I've read the books of materialist atheists that have suggested things like the exodus were false and the likes, but during the course of it they seemed to prove very much that the Jews were monotheists who did ...[text shortened]... Is there some kind of hard evidence that would indicate that Judaism was not monotheist in practice?

The bible writers in Kings spend some time complaining about the Israelites setting up Ashtoreth poles. So the Bible itself provides such evidence.

The basic narrative is that before the exile the Hebrews had three major Gods El, Ashtoreth, and Baal, and a collection of household gods. Yahweh was the household god of the Royal household. Yahweh and El merged and Ashtoreth and Baal were demonized. We can look at whether the narrative is actually historically supported if you like.

@caissad4 said
Again, read the OP. You will have to actually research the subject yourself (as I have done). If you or any other Christians are actually spiritual seekers ( I doubt that) ,there should be interest in knowing the extent to which your religious beliefs were added as time passed and were never part of the original Abrahamic faith. Seriously, ideas added by man later are not the "divine word of God".

I love the passive aggressive digs in there -- how do you know we are not 'spiritual seekers?'

--

Alright, so I have to research the idea behind the Original Post myself... You can't write about it.

You just sit there and cast some insults at people who comment... and apparently wait for someone else who has read the same book or similar material.

But back to the topic:

I am not going to make your argument for you. I do not want to run the risk of misstating it.

How about you write a little bit and tell us what you think was stolen from Zoroastrianism.

@deepthought said
The bible writers in Kings spend some time complaining about the Israelites setting up Ashtoreth poles. So the Bible itself provides such evidence.

The basic narrative is that before the exile the Hebrews had three major Gods El, Ashtoreth, and Baal, and a collection of household gods. Yahweh was the household god of the Royal household. Yahweh and El merged and Ash ...[text shortened]... ere demonized. We can look at whether the narrative is actually historically supported if you like.

Right, and even during the Exodus there are records of Jews appealing to different gods.

Yet, the period I am talking about -- the times of conquest of Canaan, the times of King David -- which Israel Finklestein specialized in show no archaeological evidence of that and every identifiably Hebrew site is very unique in terms of Middle Eastern archaeology because there are no idols and no evidence of pigs. It's really quite remarkable.

But yes, you are of course right: there are subsequent times when there is the nefarious influence of foreign religions. The Bible extensively writes about it.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Zoroastrianism was part of my studies. Please explain why I am not permitted to love/enjoy something I studied, due to being an atheist? If you had say studied mythology, would you have been incapable of loving a particular mythology simply because you didn't believe it?

As the first monotheistic religion and therefore the first to present such ideas as angel, dev ...[text shortened]... ions so readily.

As Caissad4 said, 'Spend some time studying it and you are in for a surprise.'

From what I have read and understand, both Zoroastrianism and modern Judaism both came about around 3500 years ago. Some things I read implied that Zoroastrianism was around before Judaism, but I see no proof of this, just some speculation, probably driven by those who wish to devalue Judaism, and by association, Christianity. Sources say that Zoroastrianism was first written about in the 600s BCE, with only possible roots dating back past 2000 BCE. The Hebrew faith traces further back to Abraham, with modern Judaism only dating to the time of the Exodus from Egypt back to Canaan. Many sources cannot even agree on when Zoroaster even lived.

Please point me at something which indicates that Zoroastrianism was "the first monotheistic religion". Some scholars claim that it is more closely aligned with Brahmanism (and therefore more pantheistic) with some shared origins. Mainly, though, I'm looking for information that Zoroastrianism predates Judaism, let alone the monotheistic faith of Abraham.

I am already familiar with the Zoroastrianism idea of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds", but I am at a loss to understand if they feel that the Ahura Mazda has instigated any direct revelation to followers or not, or even if they pray to their God. I'm not even conversant on their texts, the Avesta or the Gathas. I do understand that the Avesta exists today only in fragments, while the Gathas is the bulk of Zoroaster's writings.

@fmf said
Surely, as a Christian, the Jews stopped believing in what you think is "the one true God" when they rejected Jesus as bogus and an imposter?

I do not see any relation between the two concepts.

"Surely", the Jews could maintain their belief in "the one true God" even while rejecting Jesus as "bogus and an impostor".

@caissad4

That is another sky god fairy tale.

How quickly they descend from objective scholarly sounding expert to dime a dozen Internet infidel.

I thought you were going to get your intellectual "well read, more educated, man of letters" sounding chops in first.

What a let down!

@suzianne said
I do not see any relation between the two concepts.

"Surely", the Jews could maintain their belief in "the one true God" even while rejecting Jesus as "bogus and an impostor".

The Muslims believe in what they think is "the one true God" too.

@sonship said
How quickly they descend from objective scholarly sounding expert to dime a dozen Internet infidel.

A few queries: [1] I would have thought you'd appreciate her blunt candour; haven't you described some people's beliefs here as "animal excrement", [2] Do you see yourself as objective? [3] In what way do you think you yourself are NOT "dime a dozen"?

@fmf said
The Muslims believe in what they think is "the one true God" too.

That's as may be, but has little bearing on what you said, or what I just said.

@sonship said
@caissad4

That is another sky god fairy tale.

How quickly they descend from objective scholarly sounding expert to dime a dozen Internet infidel.

I thought you were going to get your intellectual "well read, more educated, man of letters" sounding chops in first.

What a let down!

Even though I fail to see how she differentiates the Zoroastrian "imaginary sky god" from the Jewish "imaginary sky god", I did not feel her OP to be a "let down" at all. It's a valid topic for discussion here.

@suzianne said
That's as may be, but has little bearing on what you said, or what I just said.

You don't seem to have understood the exchange.

I was talking to SecondSon, a Christian. He described the Jews as believing in "the one true God".

This surely is not a Christian view.

The Jews rejected Jesus as bogus and an imposter. Therefore, they rejected "the one true God", according to Christian beliefs, didn't they?

They didn't even think Jesus was sent by "the one true God" in the way the Muslims believe he was.

@Suzianne

Is ciassad4 a female ?

@sonship said
@Suzianne

Is ciassad4 a female ?

Yes. Consider yourself corrected.