All Hail Jacques Kallis, Best All Rounder

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
Crowley will you for once just stop running ppl down who disagree with you. You steadfastly support Kallis we have that message very loud and clearly from you.

The few users of this thread that have dared to speak against you have been raved at by you. Sure you have every right to rant about your hero but when ppl point out that they prefer the opinion ...[text shortened]... untry mile.

That's my opinion so think what you like but it's Stumps for you and Kallis.

Well said Tirau

I'm not even bothering responding to his rantings ,he clearly doesnt know much about rugby or cricket.

Originally posted by boarman
he clearly doesnt know much about cricket.

LOL

The feeling is mutual, buddy.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
On todays pitches and against the bowlers of today Sobers would be the outstanding batsman by a country mile.

There is no way to prove that, so all we can do is look at the stats.

Originally posted by Crowley
There is no way to prove that, so all we can do is look at the stats.

But we know we can't rely on the stats, for all sorts of reasons. You can try to reassess the stats with the help of expert judgement over these other factors, but if that isn't objective enough I think the best we can do is compare their dominance over contemporaries.

I thought of another way to assess this. The LG ICC ratings have been calculated historically. They provide a comparison of where people stood in relation to others at the time, and they do attempt to take into consideration factors such as the strength of the opposition. They may be flawed, but they are 'objective'.

The following are the highest attained allrounder ratings for a selection of players. Obviously this doesn't reward sustained excellence (they don't present the data in a way that this could easily be identified) - Kapil Dev, for instance, would probably do better if we looked at that.

Sobers - 669
Botham - 645
Kallis - 615
Miller - 572
Benaud - 532
Imran Khan - 517
Greig - 508
Hadlee - 483
Kapil Dev - 432

(Kallis is joint 9th on the table of top batting ratings, incidentally. Sobers is joint 6th.)

Originally posted by Crowley
There is no way to prove that, so all we can do is look at the stats.

yes we can but there are still other factors to consider... the standard of the opposition, the frequence of tests played etc

Also in team sports, we need to look at what the rest of their team were like....for example.... Kapil Dev was the only ture fast bowler India had when he was playing, so he had to take the new ball, be the main strike bowler and also come in to the bowling attach to contain the opposition when india were struggling in the field.

Kallis has had help in the bowling department from ppl like Donald and Pollack and Nitie. That helps a lot

Imran was also the main strike bowler for Pakistan and only near the end of the career did he get any real support when Akram and waqar younis come on to the scene.

This type of factors are not showen in stats.

Originally posted by mtthw
But we know we can't rely on the stats, for all sorts of reasons. You can try to reassess the stats with the help of expert judgement over these other factors, but if that isn't objective enough I think the best we can do is compare their dominance over contemporaries.

I thought of another way to assess this. The LG ICC ratings have been calculated histor ...[text shortened]... lis is joint 9th on the table of top batting ratings, incidentally. Sobers is joint 6th.)

Sure, it is as you say - stats are not all. But what else can we do?

Should we listen to two semi-professional rugby players whose brains have probably been turned to mush from too many loose scrums and high tackles, rant about how lightning quick bowlers were 'in the old days' and because they played all their games on pitches that looked like gravel roads, batting was near impossible?

Bah! No. All we have are stats.


The LG ratings are interesting, but that is not a true test of 'greatness'.
As you say, it tries to test a player objectively against his peers, but what it shows is a player peaking quickly.
Sobers played in an era when the Windies started to dominate the game and his game improved with a dominating side.
So, in a short period of time Sobers played a better stretch of cricket than Kallis has done.

Sobers dominated the game more than Kallis has ever done, but Kallis is just more consistent - hence a better player.

Originally posted by spurs73
yes we can but there are still other factors to consider... the standard of the opposition, the frequence of tests played etc

Also in team sports, we need to look at what the rest of their team were like....for example.... Kapil Dev was the only ture fast bowler India had when he was playing, so he had to take the new ball, be the main strike bowler and a ...[text shortened]... en Akram and waqar younis come on to the scene.

This type of factors are not showen in stats.

Because it shouldn't matter.

Kallis is a batting all rounder, Kapil and Imrhan were bowling all rounders, obviously their stats will differ.
Kallis had to bat SA out of trouble countless times.

Well, l have seen Sobers, Botham and Kallis play in the flesh. And for my money Sobers was the finest all rounder the game has seen.

Originally posted by Crowley
Because it shouldn't matter.

Kallis is a batting all rounder, Kapil and Imrhan were bowling all rounders, obviously their stats will differ.
Kallis had to bat SA out of trouble countless times.

bro..you have miss-understoon my post

Anyway check out how many times Imran and kapil dev have batted pakistan and india out of trouble.

Originally posted by spurs73
bro..you have miss-understoon my post

Anyway check out how many times Imran and kapil dev have batted pakistan and india out of trouble.

I don't think I misunderstood?

Just because they were 2 great players playing in under-performing teams, doesn't make them better players than Kallis.
All that means is they were outshining their team-mates, which explains why some people rate them wrongly among awesome company like Sobers, Kallis and Botham.

Originally posted by briey1
Well, l have seen Sobers, Botham and Kallis play in the flesh. And for my money Sobers was the finest all rounder the game has seen.

Your eyes and brain were obviously giving away with all those hard years behind you watching so much cricket...

Well here are some stats for you Crowley ,


Kallis's Batting and Bowling stats after his first 93 matches ,the same as Sobers played.

Batting----Runs 7273 Av--46.62

Bowling---Wickets 184 Av---31.11

Catches 109


And Sobers's again

Batting----Runs 8032 Av--57.78

Bowling----Wickets 235 Av--34.04

Catches 109

So you can clearly see that Sobers's batting was far superior ,he had taken more wickets at a slightly higher average and they had taken the same amount of catches.

But i'm sure you will disagree with this in some way .

Read it like it is ,

Originally posted by Crowley
Sure, it is as you say - stats are not all. But what else can we do?

Should we listen to two semi-professional rugby players whose brains have probably been turned to mush from too many loose scrums and high tackles, rant about how lightning quick bowlers were 'in the old days' and because they played all their games on pitches that looked like gravel ro ...[text shortened]... more than Kallis has ever done, but Kallis is just more consistent - hence a better player.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with "two semi-professional rugby players", but when their opinions agree with every single expert opinion I've ever heard (professional cricket players, commentators, etc), it's not that easy to dismiss.

As for stats - as I said, we know they are unreliable. Just because it's all we have, it does not make them less unreliable.

The LG stats - as I said, I posted the max values because that was the easiest thing to extract. But they do show the career profiles as well. Looking at the graph of Sobers' and Kallis' rankings does not support the assertion that Kallis is more consistent. Actually, they suggest that Sobers was the more consistent batsman. He had a rating of > 750 continuously for 14 years - Kallis has managed that for 6 years so far (though he is currently at his peak). They also show that Sobers' bowling was less effective for the early part of his career, but for the last ten years he was also more consistent than Kallis.

All the details are at http://www.lgiccrankings.com/

Originally posted by mtthw
I wouldn't necessarily agree with "two semi-professional rugby players", but when their opinions agree with every single expert opinion I've ever heard (professional cricket players, commentators, etc), it's not that easy to dismiss.

As for stats - as I said, we know they are unreliable. Just because it's all we have, it does not make them less unre ...[text shortened]... so more consistent than Kallis.

All the details are at http://www.lgiccrankings.com/

Uhm, I think you misread that graph slightly.

Sobers was never over 750 for all rounder rankings.
Sobers was around and above the 500 mark for 12 years, playing in 57 tests.
Kallis has been around and above the 500 mark for 6 years in 68 tests.
That equals more consistent in my book, as he Kallis has been over the par score for more tests in his prime than Sobers.


Check that graph again. Sobers' career spanned 20 years, and for the first 6 years or so he was mediocre. Kallis' career has only spanned 12 years, with 3 years in mediocrity country.

Originally posted by boarman
Well here are some stats for you Crowley ,


Kallis's Batting and Bowling stats after his first 93 matches ,the same as Sobers played.

Batting----Runs 7273 Av--46.62

Bowling---Wickets 184 Av---31.11

Catches 109


And Sobers's again

Batting----Runs 8032 Av--57.78

Bowling----Wickets 235 Av--34.04

Catches 109

So you can cle ...[text shortened]... catches.

But i'm sure you will disagree with this in some way .

Read it like it is ,

Nice try to put a spin on the stats again there boreman, but why would you just throw away his last 2 years worth of stats?
What are you trying to prove?
Kallis has been slower than Sobers? So what?

tsk tsk tsk, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.