1. Standard memberCrowley
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    11 Nov '07 18:03
    After seeing Kallis receive an award for passing 9000 runs in the last test against the black caps (who he helped decimate), I checked some stats and it turns out Jacques Kallis is now the best cricket all rounder in cricket history.

    - 8th most runs in tests, 10th most runs in ODIs
    - 12th best batting average in tests (it looks even better if you see that 5 players that have better averages have played less than 50 tests), 7th best ODI batting average
    - Top 50 test bowler, top 20 ODI bowler
    - Is a very solid fielder, wherever he fields and is 20th on the list of catches taken in tests and 18th for ODI catches


    Well done Jacques, you are a credit to the game in general, a true gentleman and an awesome player.


    Hell, the guy was even engaged to a Miss South Africa. http://www.cindynell.co.za/
    Now that's a real all-round performance!


    Jacques Kallis, probably more man than YOU...
  2. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    12 Nov '07 08:54
    Originally posted by Crowley
    After seeing Kallis receive an award for passing 9000 runs in the last test against the black caps (who he helped decimate), I checked some stats and it turns out Jacques Kallis is now the best cricket all rounder in cricket history.

    - 8th most runs in tests, 10th most runs in ODIs
    - 12th best batting average in tests (it looks even better if you see t ...[text shortened]... that's a real all-round performance!


    Jacques Kallis, probably more man than YOU...
    Yes well done SA again.. Black Caps add to yet another woe nail in the coffin of this sporting year for New Zealand.

    Kallis is a great player no doubt and probably the most complete player alive today but batsmen today get a lot more protection than those of the sixties and seventies when full pace fury and bounce were the expect norm in test cricket. I would take odis out of the equation completely when judging greatness in cricket also because so many of the true greats didn't play any or many odis.

    Others to recall are:

    Gary Sobers. bowled fast medium and left arm spin and chinaman.
    In 93 tests scored 8032 runs at average 57.78. 235 wickets at 34.03.

    Kapil Dev 434 test wickets he became the highest wicket taker in test cricket in 1994 which he could hold till 1999. 5248 with an average of 31.05 in test cricket. Kapil Dev was considered as one of the best captains in Test cricket.

    Beefy Botham 5200 runs av 33.54, 383 wickets in an average of 28.54. He played lowest number of matches to reach at some all round doubles including ‘1000 runs and 100 wickets’, ‘2000 runs and 200 wickets’, and ‘3000 runs and 300 wickets’. He became the first player to make 5000 runs along with 300 wickets in test cricket.
    He was the first test cricketer who made a century and take 10 wickets in a test match.

    Richard Hadlee's career test average of 22.29 for his 431 wickets was brilliant. Add his respectable middle order 3000 test runs and you can't leave him out. Not many who ever saw him off his long run at Trent Bridge, Adelaide or Eden Park would disagree.
    Paddles never missed a test and never left a test injured until he had his heart bypass surgery. He accredited this to his regime of a 10km run every morning.. of how I wish out players today could learn this...

    Imran and Akram are also favs of mine.
  3. Standard memberCrowley
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    12 Nov '07 14:381 edit
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    batsmen today get a lot more protection than those of the sixties and seventies when full pace fury and bounce were the expect norm in test cricket. I would take odis out of the equation completely when judging greatness in cricket also because so many of the true greats didn't play any or many odis.
    Sure, but the bowlers today are in much better shape than 20 or more years ago. Overall they are faster, stronger and have better stamina.
    The fielding is also much, much better.
    Fielders now chase balls to the boundary, every time, which didn't happen in 'the old days' and fielders are just much better drilled , fitter and in better overall shape, meaning many more runs are cut off that would have gone to the boundary for the other players you list.

    So, keeping all that in mind, do you still reckon there has been a better all rounder than JK?
    I don't think so...

    I didn't really use the ODIs to judge, I was merely pointing out Kallis' awesome talent and his consistency.
  4. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    12 Nov '07 19:111 edit
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Sure, but the bowlers today are in much better shape than 20 or more years ago. Overall they are faster, stronger and have better stamina.
    The fielding is also much, much better.
    Fielders now chase balls to the boundary, every time, which didn't happen in 'the old days' and fielders are just much better drilled , fitter and in better overall shape, meanin e the ODIs to judge, I was merely pointing out Kallis' awesome talent and his consistency.
    Bowlers like Hadlee Marshall Garner Ambrose Lillee Truman were the best. They were fitter stronger, more accurate and faster. They were also given the benefit of being able to bounce and bowl bodyline. They didn't break down with injury like the bowlers of today do. These guys took hundreds of wickets at amazing low averages.

    Mind you I just checked the list of top averages and there are a few modern bowlers creeping up the list: in Donald and Pollack from SA. http://www.cricmania.com/cricket/DB/bowlavg/user/us03/type/T

    As I already said: No I don't think their is a better all rounder around today than JK but I do cast doubt as to whether he was the best ever.
  5. Standard memberCrowley
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    12 Nov '07 21:01
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    As I already said: No I don't think their is a better all rounder around today than JK but I do cast doubt as to whether he was the best ever.
    Well, obviously you're entitled to your opinion.
    Me, I think the stats speak for themselves.

    Why people always have to think back to 'the good old days' is beyond me.
    A legend of cricket is playing now and I think this guy is not getting the recognition he deserves...
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    12 Nov '07 22:14
    He's got great talent, there's no denying that. For me though he'll never be a true great as he's just to boring to watch and he has a reputation for playing rather selfishly. Sure, he's won games for SA but there is that niggling doubt that perhaps he should have won more games for them. Stat's arn't everything.
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    12 Nov '07 23:36
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Well, obviously you're entitled to your opinion.
    Me, I think the stats speak for themselves.

    Why people always have to think back to 'the good old days' is beyond me. A legend of cricket is playing now and I think this guy is not getting the recognition he deserves...
    Well, the consensus among experts (and I'm not counting myself among them) is that the standard of fast bowling now is nowhere near what it was in the 70s and 80s. How many all-time greats are playing at the moment?

    Also, the consensus is that the covered pitches they use nowadays are much easier to play on - compare the number of batsmen who average above 50 now.

    Statistically, I'd agree, he's right up there. But you do have to be careful with statistics.
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    12 Nov '07 23:47
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Beefy Botham 5200 runs av 33.54, 383 wickets in an average of 28.54. He played lowest number of matches to reach at some all round doubles including ‘1000 runs and 100 wickets’, ‘2000 runs and 200 wickets’, and ‘3000 runs and 300 wickets’. He became the first player to make 5000 runs along with 300 wickets in test cricket.
    He was the first test cricketer who made a century and take 10 wickets in a test match.
    Botham had a two part career. The first half he was brilliant. The second was nothing special, and he kept his place for a long time on the basis of reputation (and a lack of competition, probably).

    Look at his statistics split at the half-way point (in terms of matches).

    First 51: Batting 2833 @ 38.8; bowling 231 @ 23.1
    Last 51: Batting 2367 @ 28.9; bowling 151 @ 36.5

    That's world class bowling in his early career.
  9. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    13 Nov '07 04:16
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Well, obviously you're entitled to your opinion.
    Me, I think the stats speak for themselves.

    Why people always have to think back to 'the good old days' is beyond me.
    A legend of cricket is playing now and I think this guy is not getting the recognition he deserves...
    Kallis I think is recognised as the best today, is acknowledged as one of the best and will go down as a cricket legend.. no doubt about it. If you check him out on the net and I did just loosely you'll find him highly rated in the top ten on many sites.. I think he is recognised.

    Lets have a bit of fun and pick a world 11 (Fav players rather than stats based (for me anyway)

    Grace
    Bradman
    Sobers
    Waugh M
    Crowe M
    Khan I
    Warne S
    Hadlee R
    Marsh R
    Marshall
    Garner
    Rhodes J (12th man)
  10. Standard memberbuffalobill
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    13 Nov '07 18:451 edit
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Kallis I think is recognised as the best today, is acknowledged as one of the best and will go down as a cricket legend.. no doubt about it. If you check him out on the net and I did just loosely you'll find him highly rated in the top ten on many sites.. I think he is recognised.

    Lets have a bit of fun and pick a world 11 (Fav players rather than stats ...[text shortened]... s
    Waugh M
    Crowe M
    Khan I
    Warne S
    Hadlee R
    Marsh R
    Marshall
    Garner
    Rhodes J (12th man)
    What? No place for one G Pollock?
  11. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    14 Nov '07 08:31
    Originally posted by buffalobill
    What? No place for one G Pollock?
    I could have picked from eight for that five spot but Martin Crowe got my home country bias ;-) He was a magnificent front foot driver and only Viv Richards and Greg Chappell could out cut him IMO.... It was awful that his knees gave out and wrecked his career.
    I wanted to pick Boycott and Truman too but I'm sure someone may imagine such a team..
    Anyone who has ever sat at a match by the boundary pencilling wagonwheels of their fav batsman would also have spent many nights dreaming of such a team as this (or their own heroes).. wonderful stuff.
  12. Standard memberboarman
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    14 Nov '07 10:00
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Kallis I think is recognised as the best today, is acknowledged as one of the best and will go down as a cricket legend.. no doubt about it. If you check him out on the net and I did just loosely you'll find him highly rated in the top ten on many sites.. I think he is recognised.

    Lets have a bit of fun and pick a world 11 (Fav players rather than stats ...[text shortened]... s
    Waugh M
    Crowe M
    Khan I
    Warne S
    Hadlee R
    Marsh R
    Marshall
    Garner
    Rhodes J (12th man)
    This is quite hard ,so this is my first team.

    Based on stats and Favourites.

    Ok team 1 of probably a few.


    L Hutton
    S Gavaskar
    D Bradman
    R Ponting
    V Richards
    G Sobers
    A Gilchrist
    R Hadlee
    K Dev
    S Warne
    G McGrath
    K Miller (12th Man)

    This team could possibly score 1000 test runs per innings or 500 one day runs.
    Bowl opposition out twice fairly easily.

    Like i said this is just one team and i'll await comments before posting another.
    These topics are always so hard as of the different eras involved,but they do offer good talking point.
  13. Standard memberbuffalobill
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    14 Nov '07 19:30
    Originally posted by boarman
    This is quite hard ,so this is my first team.

    Based on stats and Favourites.

    Ok team 1 of probably a few.


    L Hutton
    S Gavaskar
    D Bradman
    R Ponting
    V Richards
    G Sobers
    A Gilchrist
    R Hadlee
    K Dev
    S Warne
    G McGrath
    K Miller (12th Man)

    This team could possibly score 1000 test runs per innings or 500 one day runs.
    Bowl opposition out twi ...[text shortened]... pics are always so hard as of the different eras involved,but they do offer good talking point.
    MY SA Test XI
    All right, if we’re going to show a biased hand, I’ll pick the all time best SA team to take any of your's on:

    1. Barry Richards – only played 4 tests ave. 72
    2. Jimmy Cook – A victim of apartheid - never played test cricket until he was nearly 40 – pure class and timing. Scored 7500 runs in three seasons with Somerset including 28 centuries.
    3. Peter Kirsten – older brother of Gary and a much better bat. Superb against spin and a decent off-spinner himself. Glorious fielder, too.
    4. J Kallis – an exceptional batting all-rounder.
    5. Graeme Pollock – just the best batsman in the world of the last 40 years and perhaps the finest lefthander of all time (Bradman rated only Sobers as his equal). Second highest Test average of 61. Lazy fielder though.
    6. Jonty Rhodes – Simply the best close fielder and added a third competitive dimension to the game. But also held his end up with the bat. Remodelled his batting in 1987 and in the second half of his Test career averaged 50. The king of quick singles.
    7. Johnny Waite – Wicketkeeper - ‘50s and ‘60s. First SA to 50 Tests and technically excellent. Decent bat but not in the class of Lindsay.
    8. Clive Rice – Bowling all rounder. Captain.
    9. Hugh Tayfield – from the ‘50s and ‘60s. Best off-spinner SA has produced. Ave 4.59 wickers per Test, best innings figures 9/115 in 35 (8-ball) unchanged overs against England in Johannesburg 1956/7.
    10. Garth le Roux – again never played Test cricket. Man of the Series in the Kerry Packer series. Could bat a bit too first class ave. 25.
    11. Alan Donald. White Lightning. Genuinely quick and dangerous. The cricketing world only saw the second half of his career. Couldn’t bat – at all.

    Some of these I never saw so they’re chosen on record and reputation. I’m in no position to judge pre-war players, so there’s nobody from those times, but SA cricket generally wasn’t strong. One notable exclusion is Dudley Nourse (Test ave. 54) who retired in 1951. One potential weakness in this team is just one left-hander, but what a one! Some of these players never played Test cricket, one just four games and two just a handful when well past their best. For me the golden era of SA cricket, with the brightest stars came from the mid-60’s to the mid-80’s and despite the lack of international cricket, the domestic scene was extremely strong. Certainly, the Transvaal “Mean Machine” of the 80s under Rice would have been a match for any international team.

    4 and 5 can juggle around, depending on the needs of the game. Pollock was an attacking batsman, while Kallis has his moments of aggression but prefers to accumulate.
  14. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    16 Nov '07 05:53
    Originally posted by buffalobill
    MY SA Test XI
    All right, if we’re going to show a biased hand, I’ll pick the all time best SA team to take any of your's on:

    1. Barry Richards – only played 4 tests ave. 72
    2. Jimmy Cook – A victim of apartheid - never played test cricket until he was nearly 40 – pure class and timing. Scored 7500 runs in three seasons with Somerset including 28 cen ...[text shortened]... was an attacking batsman, while Kallis has his moments of aggression but prefers to accumulate.
    Good patriotic choice but hardly electrifying I think it may come undone at grounds like Trentbridge or Adelaide Oval ... how many would you have in you world team? Kirsten was boring I could think of ten I'd rate ahead of him for #3, Rice was Hadlee's opening partner at Nottingham with the ball.. a good captain. I did like Pollack.. saw him once if I remember but well past his best.. Elegant on the front foot & very correct. I rate Jonty as the quickest reflex fielder I've seen esp gulley.
    Did any of these get a chance to show form against the great west indian pace attack of the seventies?? I don't recall... I know it was considered a measure of a batsman.

    My Fav batsman was Greg Chappell Aus but then to think of Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Greenwich, D'Olivera etc,, sigh I had to pick Martin Crowe at 4 as my bit of NZism.
  15. Standard memberbuffalobill
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    16 Nov '07 06:40
    Harldy electifying he says - four of the top five were attacking batsmen. We can debate a World XI but because of isolation only one is a definite must-have and that's Graeme Pollock.
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