All Hail Jacques Kallis, Best All Rounder

Originally posted by Crowley
Not that it should matter:
Of Kallis' almost 9200 test runs, less than 900 runs and only 28 wickets came compliments of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Still Kallis outshines Khan by a country mile.

Lets not forget about the so called world cups where teams like Ireland,Netherlands etc played,take all these out of the equation also.

Originally posted by Crowley
It's no use Will, these guys don't even recognize a legend being born in front of their eyes in the form of JK, always hunkering to the days past.
I don't understand this.

'But in the old days there were more bouncers' etc. etc. ad nauseum. The game changes boys - it's becoming more difficult to score runs, bowlers and fielders are in better shape, bats ...[text shortened]... nd JK's speaks volumes. He is the best all-rounder of all time.

Thanks for your time.

Yes the game does change and players dont have to play on sticky wickets these days,pitches get covered and this is a factor of today.

Originally posted by boarman
Lets not forget about the so called world cups where teams like Ireland,Netherlands etc played,take all these out of the equation also.

I've only been using test stats, as many of the great all rounders never played ODIs.

Originally posted by boarman
Sangakkara isnt even good enough to keep for Sri Lanka at moment.

For the best way to work out a who's who ,maybe we should look at the stats against individual nations.
Just take Murali into this,he has played a lot more tests against Bangaladesh and Zimbabwe than Warne and taken so many more wickets against these two sides,than Warne ever did.
Put up t.

From Your numerous posts about rugby and now cricket you are a one eyed SA Mr Crowley.

What am I, the statistician now? The stats are very easy to find guys...
http://stats.cricinfo.com/[WORD TOO LONG].cgifields=viewtype EDIT: URL TOO LONG - Reply & quote to see it
As you can see, Kallis has scored runs against everybody, with averages over 60 against the Windies, Pakistan, New Zealand and India!


boreman, I can't help South African sportsmen are doing so well on the world stage now.
If you want to sing the praises of Ricky Ponting or Matt Giteau, go for it, but don't expect me to do it. I believe Ponting is the best batsmen cricket has ever seen, just as good as Bradman ever was and I think Giteau is one of the most talented rugby players ever.
Am I now suddenly biased because I don't start threads about them? No, I just don't really care, because they're not South African.
You are the one who seems to be biased, because you will disregard things I post, just because we have disagreed a few times.

I will sing SA sportsmen and women's praises till the cows come in. I believe what I'm posting here. I'm not just trying to stir the pot and I think I'm objective enough.
I think you guys are just irritated that I'm right, once again.


I believe Kallis is a legend of cricket and I would like him to get recognition in his time, not 10 years after he hangs up his gloves.

Originally posted by Crowley
I've only been using test stats, as many of the great all rounders never played ODIs.

You have mentioned the One Day Game in your posts so you have been referring to them.

Originally posted by Crowley
What am I, the statistician now? The stats are very easy to find guys...
http://stats.cricinfo.com/[WORD TOO LONG] ...[text shortened]... ld like him to get recognition in his time, not 10 years after he hangs up his gloves.

I am not denying the fact that Kallis is a great allrounder,maybe the 2nd best but definitely not the best .
Here are a few factors to put in your equation.

Kallis has played 111 test matches
Sobers Played 93 test matches

Kallis has 189 innings compared with Sobers's 160 innings
Given the fact he has only scored 1165 more runs than Sobers makes him a lesser player(ie if you Take Sobers average and times it by the difference in Test innings 57.78 x 29 = 1675.62.) Add these runs onto Sobers and you have 9707 runs which is more than Kallis.Sobers also got more wickets in less games.
Kallis has played against 9 different nations
Sobers played against 5
Kallis high score 189
Sobers high score 365(record at time)
Kallis has not scored a double hundred or triple
Sobers did this on 1 occasion each
Sobers managed career average over 80 against India and Pakistan ,and Averaged over 60 against England

so you can clearly see that Kallis is number 2 in the greatest allrounder status

Yes you are right to be patriotic im not stopping you but when you have been proven wrong you dig the heels in and defiantly stick with your SA players.

As an aussie its a toss up between Hussey or Ponting as to who is the best at moment,We will see once this summer is over.

Giteau is a good player at the moment but still has a way to go to be in the same class as Tim Horan,one of the best Wallaby centres to play the game.

Originally posted by boarman
[
Put up Kallis's stats against the individual nations and lets see what he's got.

Some realy good points Boarman.. i think we could take it further and also consider this (although i knew this may also be a bit sub-jective)

Lets see the records of Imran, botham and kapil dev against the best test team of their time......mainly the West indieans and Australia.

How how has kallis done against the best test team during the most part of his caree whihc has been australia.

Originally posted by spurs73
Some realy good points Boarman.. i think we could take it further and also consider this (although i knew this may also be a bit sub-jective)

Lets see the records of Imran, botham and kapil dev against the best test team of their time......mainly the West indieans and Australia.

How how has kallis done against the best test team during the most part of his caree whihc has been australia.

Well i will do a Crowley and show the stats:

Kallis's batting record versus Australia

Matches 18, Innings 35, Runs 1188, Average 38.32

Bowling record
Matches 18, Wickets 35, Average 37.17

Nothing to special there .

Originally posted by boarman
Well i will do a Crowley and show the stats:

Kallis's batting record versus Australia

Matches 18, Innings 35, Runs 1188, Average 38.32

Bowling record
Matches 18, Wickets 35, Average 37.17

Nothing to special there .

IMRAN KHAN .v. Australia 18 matches
batting 862 runs @ 37.47 avg
bowling 64 wickets at 24.96

.v. WEST INDIES also 18 matches
batting 775 runs @ 27.67
bowling 80 wickets at 21.18

KAPIL DEV v Australia 20 MATCHES
687 runs at 26.42
79 wickets at 25.35

.v. West Indies 25 matches
1079 runs at 30.82
89 wickets at 24.89

IAN BOTHAM .V. Australia 36 matches
runs 1673 at 29.35
bowling 148 wickets at 27.65

.v. West indies 20 matches
runs 792 at 21.40
bowling 61 wickets at 35.18

RICHARD HADLEE .v. Australia 23 matches
783 runs at 23.72
130 wickets at 20.56

.v. WEST INDIES 10 MATCHES
Runs 389 at 32.41
Bowling 51 wickets at 22.03

Originally posted by boarman
You have mentioned the One Day Game in your posts so you have been referring to them.

I only referred to ODI stats when comparing Kallis to Khan, Beefy and Dev.

Originally posted by Crowley
I only referred to ODI stats when comparing Kallis to Khan, Beefy and Dev.

yeah fair point ,we wont harp on about the ODI stats, just Test stats.

Originally posted by boarman
I am not denying the fact that Kallis is a great allrounder,maybe the 2nd best but definitely not the best .
Here are a few factors to put in your equation.

Kallis has played 111 test matches
Sobers Played 93 test matches

Kallis has 189 innings compared with Sobers's 160 innings
Given the fact he has only scored 1165 more runs than Sobers makes him ...[text shortened]... hen you have been proven wrong you dig the heels in and defiantly stick with your SA players.

Oh god, you are just grabbing at straws now, aren't you?

What does it matter what a person's highest score is or how many milestones he's reached? Consistency is what we're looking for.
Kallis has a better average than Sobers and scored more 50s and 100s.
Sobers also made more ducks than Kallis.

So Sobers played against less nations? I fail to see the relevance?
Playing against more nations in my eyes means playing on many more different pitches and grounds in away games, which would be more difficult.
Playing against the same people all the time means Sobers got used to his opposition.


So you see, I'm not digging my heels in after being proven wrong.
I'm right.
Kallis is better than Sobers.

Originally posted by Crowley
Oh god, you are just grabbing at straws now, aren't you?

What does it matter what a person's highest score is or how many milestones he's reached? Consistency is what we're looking for.
Kallis has a better average than Sobers and scored more 50s and 100s.
Sobers also made more ducks than Kallis.

So Sobers played against less nations? I fail to see t digging my heels in after being proven wrong.
I'm right.
Kallis is better than Sobers.

Lokk its pointless to keep on trying to convince someone that wont open his eyes.

Kallis has scored more 50's and 100's and has a better average because he has played more matches and innings.

Yeah poor old Sobers and his team mates didnt have the luxury of todays players either ,so dont go on about playing on different pitches and grounds for away games,so i think your point is irrelevant

Kallis is only better in your eyes only,its funny how none of the experts seem to think that.
He is a great player but being the best allrounder he isnt.

Game over ,Its stumps .

One thing Mr Crowley is that we agree to disagree.

Originally posted by boarman
Kallis has scored more 50's and 100's and has a better average because he has played more matches and innings.

Yeah poor old Sobers and his team mates didnt have the luxury of todays players either ,so dont go on about playing on different pitches and grounds for away games,so i think your point is irrelevant

Ha!
Let's look at the stats objectively, OK? How about a quick average calculation.

Kallis 189 innings, Sobers 160.
Sobers made a 50 at a rate of 18.75% of his innings, Kallis at 23.81%
Sobers made a 100 at a rate of 16.25% of his innings, Kallis at 15.34%
So, Sobers had a 0.9% better conversion rate from 50 to a 100 than Kallis, but Kallis was much more CONSISTENT with a scoring rate of 50+ runs in an innings of 39.15%, slightly more than Sobers' 35%.

It's pretty close, but Kallis has a better average, so I'll have to tip my hat to him.
And don't post again that he has a better average because of more tests played, you are just looking silly. Average calculations are the great equaliser RUNS/INNINGS.


About my 'irrelevant' points:
Please! You are just changing the rules as we go along here!
You used the example of Sobers playing against less test nations, then when I shoot holes in your stupid theory, you just throw it out!

You sir, are full of crap, just like all the so called experts.

I'm using the stats available. It shows that Kallis is the best, with Sobers just on his heels.
I don't want to use other emotional ties and perceived different conditions, because those things can't be quantified.
All we have are the black on white stats.
Some people may still say that Sobers was better and I won't argue that too hard, but they are pretty damn close. Maybe even tied at the top.
Just don't try to convince me Sobers was much better than Kallis.

Give Kallis a few more seasons and he's going to put a nice bit of daylight between himself and Sobers.

Originally posted by Crowley
Ha!
Let's look at the stats objectively, OK? How about a quick average calculation.

Kallis 189 innings, Sobers 160.
Sobers made a 50 at a rate of 18.75% of his innings, Kallis at 23.81%
Sobers made a 100 at a rate of 16.25% of his innings, Kallis at 15.34%
So, Sobers had a 0.9% better conversion rate from 50 to a 100 than Kallis, but Kallis was much m ...[text shortened]... re seasons and he's going to put a nice bit of daylight between himself and Sobers.

Crowley will you for once just stop running ppl down who disagree with you. You steadfastly support Kallis we have that message very loud and clearly from you.

The few users of this thread that have dared to speak against you have been raved at by you. Sure you have every right to rant about your hero but when ppl point out that they prefer the opinion of the majority of crickets commentators they have that right too.

Perhaps if you "moderated" yourself down a level more ppl would join in the discussions. You go at it like Gordon Ramsey on Red Bull and Vodka...

Sobers would make my team ahead of Kallis and Khan would be my all-rounder. On todays pitches and against the bowlers of today Sobers would be the outstanding batsman by a country mile.

That's my opinion so think what you like but it's Stumps for you and Kallis.