Future Hall of Famers

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
Hey #1, Zambrano pitched 7 innings against Florida giving up 2 runs. and lowering his ERA to 2.96. Your wishful fantasy that he's in a tailspin does not seem to match up with reality.

Congrats, he finally won a game.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Congrats, he finally won a game.

It is amazing how you ignore ALL facts with me and others but
Carlos Zambrano is 11-4 with a 2.96 ERA. He has one of the top 10 ERAs in baseball. He is a bonafide ace. He would be in the middle of my short list for NL Cy Young candidates along with Volquez, Lincecum, Sheets, Demster, Hamels and Webb.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
It is amazing how you ignore ALL facts with me and others but
Carlos Zambrano is 11-4 with a 2.96 ERA. He has one of the top 10 ERAs in baseball. He is a bonafide ace. He would be in the middle of my short list for NL Cy Young candidates along with Volquez, Lincecum, Sheets, Demster, Hamels and Webb.

You are obsessed with ERA. It's a lot easier to have a lower ERA in the NL facing the opposing pitchers and a weaker league in general then it is facing the heavy hitting lineups in the AL. But you can't get that obvious fact through your thick skull.

Zambrano pitched one game against the AL this year and lost to the Rays, giving up 5 runs (4 earned) in 6.2 innings. That's a 5.40 ERA. In fact, only 6 of Zambrano's 20 starts have been against teams with a better than .500 record and he's a mere 2-2. Some "ace".

Andy Petitte pitched 3 games against the NL and here's his numbers: 3-0 19 IP and 2 ER; an ALL-Important ERA of 0.95. Additionally, he's pitched 11 games against over .500 teams. It's rather unsurprising that Zambrano pitching against a creampuff schedule has a somewhat better ERA than Petitte facing the best in baseball does.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You are obsessed with ERA. It's a lot easier to have a lower ERA in the NL facing the opposing pitchers and a weaker league in general then it is facing the heavy hitting lineups in the AL. But you can't get that obvious fact through your thick skull.

Zambrano pitched one game against the AL this year and lost to the Rays, giving up 5 runs ...[text shortened]... puff schedule has a somewhat better ERA than Petitte facing the best in baseball does.

Your idea that all the good offensive teams are in the AL just isn't true. The hitting is better in the NL than it has been and the new NL parks are primarily hitters parks. Even it were easier to have a low ERA in the AL, Pettitte has the 20th best ERA-- that's not ace material.
Wins certainly has less to do with a pitcher than their ERA (but Zambrano does have as many as Pettitte --with 3 fewer losses). Pettitte has a worse ERA than AL afterthoughts Matt Garza, Nick Blackburn. If the Yankees did not hit for Pettitte he'd be a .500 pitcher like most 4 ERA pitchers. Would you think Garza's performance (AL pitcher, better ERA, better WHIP) is worthy of 16M?

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
Your idea that all the good offensive teams are in the AL just isn't true. The hitting is better in the NL than it has been and the new NL parks are primarily hitters parks. Even it were easier to have a low ERA in the AL, Pettitte has the 20th best ERA-- that's not ace material.
Wins certainly has less to do with a pitcher than their ERA (but Would you think Garza's performance (AL pitcher, better ERA, better WHIP) is worthy of 16M?

The AL beat the crap out of the NL in interleague play this year; which league is tougher, Mr. Expert? Last numbers I checked, Zambrano gets a full .25 more run support per 9 innings than Petitte does. Petitte gets wins because he pitches big when he has to; last weekend Petitte and the Yankees faced the A's and their pitcher who had a 1.87 ERA. An obvious mismatch according to you. Petitte pitched 8 innings and gave up 1 run to win 2-1. That was sure a lot of hitting the Yanks did for him.

When Matt Garza averages 15 wins a year for 13 years, goes 14-9 in the post season and pitches a shutout to win the World Series, then he's in Petitte's class. He ain't now no matter what his ERA is.

You obviously don't know jack about baseball; stop embarassing yourself.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The AL beat the crap out of the NL in interleague play this year; which league is tougher, Mr. Expert? Last numbers I checked, Zambrano gets a full .25 more run support per 9 innings than Petitte does. Petitte gets wins because he pitches big when he has to; last weekend Petitte and the Yankees faced the A's and their pitcher who had a 1.87 ERA. An obvi ...[text shortened]... is.

You obviously don't know jack about baseball; stop embarassing yourself.

Your ability to insult people when you are 100% wrong on the facts does not make you any more correct. Instead it just shows that you are a jerk.
The Yankees already paid Pettitte for what he did in the past. This is not a discussion about who had a better career. Pettitte has a 4 ERA and is 11-7. Which in case you don't know it, it is good but not great. Zambrano is 11-4 with a 2.96 -- that is an ace.
Pettitte has the 20th best ERA in the AL; he is not dominant when compared to other AL pitchers either.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
Your ability to insult people when you are 100% wrong on the facts does not make you any more correct. Instead it just shows that you are a jerk.
The Yankees already paid Pettitte for what he did in the past. This is not a discussion about who had a better career. Pettitte has a 4 ERA and is 11-7. Which in case you don't know it, it is good bu ...[text shortened]... has the 20th best ERA in the AL; he is not dominant when compared to other AL pitchers either.

As I said before, what they are doing this year is irrelevant to what they are getting paid; the owners didn't have crystal balls. Their records over the three years prior was virtually identical in BOTH wins and ERA. So they wound up getting paid about the same. That's amazing only to you.

Based on Zambrano's poor performance down the stretch last year and Petitte's 11-3 record after the All-Star break in 2007, a case could easily be made that Petitte deserved a higher salary than Zambrano. But there is no argument based on anything but Yankee hating that Petitte is "overpaid"; again he has the best winning percentage in the history of baseball after the break. When Zambrano wins some big games get back to me; so far he hasn't won a post season game and pitched poorly down the stretch in the only pennant races he was in. Some "ace".

EDIT: Just to show how ridiculous you are, you are constantly disparging Petitte's 3.86 ERA in the AL in 2008. Yet, Zambrano had a 3.95 ERA in the weaker NL in 2007 and to you that merits being considered an ace!

Originally posted by no1marauder
As I said before, what they are doing this year is irrelevant to what they are getting paid; the owners didn't have crystal balls. Their records over the three years prior was virtually identical in BOTH wins and ERA. So they wound up getting paid about the same. That's amazing only to you.

Based on Zambrano's poor performance down the stretc ...[text shortened]... ad a 3.95 ERA in the weaker NL in 2007 and to you that merits being considered an ace!

Talking to you is totally ridiculous. I am not sure how thinking Pettitte isn't an ace is Yankee hatred. I am a Yankee fan and actually root for the guy.
But I am not so stupid that I think he is close to the pitcher that Zambrano is. Zambrano's ERA was up last year (although he won 18 games which seems to be all that is important to you) In the prior years he was 16-7 3.41, 14-6 3.26, 16-8 2.75, 13-11 3.11 in his previous years. Nothing in Pettitte's recent history shows that you would get this kind of production and so far the Yankees haven't.
Zambrano has almost a full run better ERA this year, a slightly better ERA last year and almost a full run better ERA the year before when they were both in the NL. It isn't close and Zambrano did not cheat either.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
Talking to you is totally ridiculous. I am not sure how thinking Pettitte isn't an ace is Yankee hatred. I am a Yankee fan and actually root for the guy.
But I am not so stupid that I think he is close to the pitcher that Zambrano is. Zambrano's ERA was up last year (although he won 18 games which seems to be all that is important to you) In ...[text shortened]... ar before when they were both in the NL. It isn't close and Zambrano did not cheat either.

If ERA was sooooooooooooooooo important, the best pitcher in each league would get the Ed Walsh, not the Cy Young. I've yet to hear a manager or player say, "We're hoping his ERA is under X this year"; I have heard them say many times "We're hoping he can win Y number of games".

How a pitcher who wins almost the same amount of games and has almost the exact same ERA over the preceding three years isn't "close" to another pitcher with virtually the same numbers is a mystery to the non-insane. You've gone beyond stupid to CrazyTown.

Petitte's prior production suggested he'd get about the same amount of wins as Zambrano and he has. Based on their prior performances, it's a pretty good bet that Petitte will win more than Zambrano this year. If you knew anything about veteran pitchers, you'd know that many of them are slow starters in the Spring but pitch much better in the hot weather and then in crunch time. You keep ignoring these basic facts of baseball life that most casual fans are aware of and harping about a stat like ERA (when comparing NL ERAs to AL ERAs is a joke for the reasons I've given; if Petitte pitched primarily in the NL, he'd have a lower ERA and if Zambrano pitched in the AL. he'd have a higher ERA. FACT). Your ignorance of the game is palpable.

Look at the numbers for the past 2.5 years Zambrano has been a lot better than Pettitte (including the year Pettitte was in the NL. The full run difference is just due to league. We will see if this year in August and September (without performance enhancers and being over the age of over 35 )if Pettitte continues to pitch better in the summer heat. He'll need about 1.50 ERA for the rest of the year to finish with Zambrano's numbers

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
Look at the numbers for the past 2.5 years Zambrano has been a lot better than Pettitte (including the year Pettitte was in the NL. The full run difference is just due to league. We will see if this year in August and September (without performance enhancers and being over the age of over 35 )if Pettitte continues to pitch better in the summer heat. He'll need about 1.50 ERA for the rest of the year to finish with Zambrano's numbers

You like to leave out 2005 when Petitte had a 2.39 ERA for some reason (probably because you're a jerk).

Petitte was 6-0 last August while Zambrano went 0-4. Being over 35 didn't seem like an impediment to him.

Again, only you and fantasy baseball morons care about ERA esp. when you are comparing the apple of the NL to the orange of the AL. Petitte had an 0.95 ERA against the NL this year, one of the MANY facts that you keep ignoring.

CORRECTION: I missed a start Petitte had against the Mets where he lost giving up 3 runs in 6 innings. So, Petitte's record against th NL is 3-1 with a 1.80 ERA. My apologies.

Your arguments make so little sense they are difficult to address, but I'll try. If Pettitte was in the NL he would not have a 1 ERA for the whole year. In fact his last year in the NL he was almost a full fun more than Zambrano. It is ridiculous to look at 3.5 years ago pitching stats when Pettitte has not had a below 4 ERA since.
I cannot expect anyone to go 6-0 in a month; nothing Pettitte has done this year makes me believe that he will. But hopefully you'll be right and he'll be 17-7 with a mid 3 ERA by the end of next month and the Yankees got what they paid for.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If ERA was sooooooooooooooooo important, the best pitcher in each league would get the Ed Walsh, not the Cy Young. I've yet to hear a manager or player say, "We're hoping his ERA is under X this year"; I have heard them say many times "We're hoping he can win Y number of games".

How a pitcher who wins almost the same amount of games and the AL. he'd have a higher ERA. FACT). Your ignorance of the game is palpable.

Boy, you are so full of it and you are toooooooooooooooooo dumb to realize it. Your remarks are ridiculous regarding ERA and wins. I hope you are a good attorney, because you would suck as a litigator and your damn sure don't understand baseball management. Is that clear enough for you? Stop badgering and shut up for once and listen.

A pitcher cannot win a game by himself......period! This is a no brainer.
If a pitcher can hold the opposition to a smaller number of runs than his team can score, and if he is the pitcher of record at the time the lead was obtained, and if they never relinquish that lead until the completion of the game and if that pitcher (we are assuming a starting pitcher here) pitches at least 5 full innings, he can qualify for a win. Surely you agree with these facts. Now, would you agree that if a pitcher threw an entire season and maintained an ERA under 2.00 for that entire year, that he would be a very good pitcher, regardless of his W-L record. Any answer other than "yes" there will show you to be a certifiable idiot.

Tell me which of these guys is the better pitcher:

21 games started ERA 1.69 wins 11
27 games started ERA 2.91 wins 12
30 games started ERA 3.44 wins 13
32 games started ERA 3.20 wins 16
34 games started ERA 2.76 wins 8

I am not aware of a single "baseball man" in management that would ever state that we hope "x" player wins "x" games. They will say say we hope "we" win "x" games. Now if the pitcher is effective, he "gives us a chance to win". If the team sucks offensively, a great and dominating pitcher can suffer through no run support and no wins, while another pitcher benefits from 8 runs everytime he goes out, even though he gives up 6 runs. Now, by your premise, you suggest that the pitcher with 17 wins and a 6.00 ERA is a better pitcher than the guy who gets 10 wins and a 2.90 ERA. Hogwash!!! The better pitcher (the one with the low ERA) either pitched in bad luck, got no run support or a combination of the two. The other guy who won all of the games was lucky as hell.

In your arguement regarding Petitte and Zambrano, Petitte has more guile than does Zambrano. Zambrano is a bull who tries to intimidate and overpower hitters. He is young and still learning. Petitte has lost some zip off his fastball due to age and surgery, but he is smart and will keep the ball in play. Regarding the ERA differences between the leagues, it is roughly a one run variant. A 2.80 ERA in the NL equates to about a 3.80 ERA in the AL for the reasons you mentioned regarding the extra hitter. However, pitchers will realize 1-2 more wins per year in the AL vs the NL because of being allowed to stay in the game due to the DH. FACT!! In the NL, managers are faced with the dilemma of having to hit for the pitcher in the 6th or 7th inning during a rally, or giving up the offense potentially in order to leave him in the game pitching. So it isn't black and white matter of fact as you present it. It is a combination of factors.

And, your Yankee bias screams loudly through your posts, but the Yanks are in deep trouble, and they know it. So deep, in fact, they have discussed bringing Barry Bonds over. I seriously doubt that they reach the playoffs this year. In fact, it is quite possible that the AL East may have only one team in the playoffs this year. I think Chicago and Minnesota may both make it, which means Boston or Tampa could be the lone rep from the east. I think Oakland and Texas will both fade in the west. IMO.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Boy, you are so full of it and you are toooooooooooooooooo dumb to realize it. Your remarks are ridiculous regarding ERA and wins. I hope you are a good attorney, because you would suck as a litigator and your damn sure don't understand baseball management. Is that clear enough for you? Stop badgering and shut up for once and listen.

A pitcher cannot ne rep from the east. I think Oakland and Texas will both fade in the west. IMO.

First of all, you are simply wrong to claim that "baseball men" including the starting pitchers themselves don't have has aspirational targets a certain number of wins. Of course, the team winning is the paramount concern, but if you are getting 15 or more wins from your better starters, you're generally in good shape. You have, as usual, a big mouth but again you don't know what you are talking about.

It is of course true that a pitcher can pitch well but have poor run support and not have a good won loss record (i.e. Greg Maddux this year); contrary to your idiotic assertions, I've never said otherwise. But in case you can't read, this thread has been discussing two specific pitchers: Carlos Zambrano and Andy Petitte. Guess who's getting better run support? Go to here and have someone explain the chart to you:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=runSupportAvg&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch3&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=100

Anyway, the claim the other moron made is that Petitte is in no way of comparable worth to Zambrano in 2008 and that further that that was obvious before the 2008 season (because that's when they decided to "overpay" Petitte). Since his entire thesis is based on ERA and you concede that the difference between the expected ERA of an AL starter and an NL starter would erase the difference between Pettitte's and Zambrano's ERA, you should be directing your bile towards him. As far as AL pitchers going longer and thus having more chances for wins, in the abstract that might be true but it depends on the pitcher and the manager. This year Zambrano is averaging 6.7 innings a start and Petitte 6.3, so the argument would run the other way in this specific situation.

The Yanks are playing well right now; in less than three weeks they've went from 9 games behind to only 3. We'll see; SI.com is reporting that they have picked a big bat in Xavier Nady and a first class lefty reliever in Damaso Marte. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/25/pirates.yanks.trade/index.html We'll see.

Originally posted by no1marauder
First of all, you are simply wrong to claim that "baseball men" including the starting pitchers themselves don't have has aspirational targets a certain number of wins. Of course, the team winning is the paramount concern, but if you are getting 15 or more wins from your better starters, you're generally in good shape. You have, as usual, a big mouth but trated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/25/pirates.yanks.trade/index.html We'll see.

First of all, I know exactly what I am talking about, and you alluding to anyone as having a big mouth is like the pot calling the kettle black. And you never, repeat never, said the pitchers wins were aspirational goals. You indicated the managemnet set goals for the players. Truth be known, those goals are laid out in their contracts by way of bonuses in most of the big name stars contracts. Some for IP, some for GS, some for W's and some for ERA or position of finish in awards. Now, contrary to what you may believe, these are generally used as economic motivators while giving them capital defense in case the player faulters or gets injured. This is a big difference to the way you presented your arguement.

You are funny in your defense of your arguements in that when you screw up, you just yell louder and start the name calling in a bullish attempt to scare away your detractors. That only works when your detractors don't know for certain that they are correct, and that you are wrong.

With regard to your arguement about Petitte and Zambrano, I don't believe I took sides in that arguement, I merely stated the background of the two pitchers. The bile was more directed at your dismissal of the value of ERA versus individual wins, which you now have admitted you agree with me.

The Yankees do appear to have made the deal with Pittsburgh, and they are talking about acquiring Jarod Washburn as well. They realized they were in trouble, and to their credit they are doing something about it. We will see what counter-moves this may trigger by the teams they are competing with. It could be a very busy weekend.