Originally posted by shortcircuit A bunch of them. Check out Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese for starters.
Both were elected by the Veterans Committee long after their careers were over. Other factors might have influenced their selection as well, in particular Rizzuto's long career as a fabled broadcaster and Reese's unwavering and heroic support of Jackie Robinson.
Raines has a better, BA, OBP and more speed SB and triples. Biggio has a more power (HRs, RBI, doubles). They are different type of lead off hitters and Raines is more of a traditional type. Raines dominant years were early in the early 80s when numbers were not as inflated so his totals are less effected. We just flat out disagree that there is no comparison between the two players.
no1 brings up good points about Reese and Rizzuto being elected for more than just their on-the-field contributions.
I like Biggio as a player who was able to play several positions well, was a gentleman, played hard, was very popular in Houston, and was fairly consistent throughout his career. Whereas 3,000 hits is a great benchmark, I don't see his numbers as a first-round, but I will amend a post I made in the retired players thread. I think it it guaranteed Biggio will be in (it was late and I was feeding a baby), but I still think he will have to wait. (BTW, in '91 he played C and OF during the season and made the AS team. Every other time he was an AS it was at 2B.)
As far as Raines goes, though, didn't he have a lot of health issues and was chronically on the DL? It looks like from '93-'02 the number of games he played in is drastically reduced. He was not the same player after leaving Montreal. While his career is a bit longer, and he definitely was a good player in the 80's, he is no where near as consistent as Biggio. With all that and no GG's, I'm not sure I would vote Raines in.
Originally posted by no1marauder Both were elected by the Veterans Committee long after their careers were over. Other factors might have influenced their selection as well, in particular Rizzuto's long career as a fabled broadcaster and Reese's unwavering and heroic support of Jackie Robinson.
You are smarter than that. You KNOW why they were elected, don't you? They both played SS on two of the greatest dynasties in the game, the Yankees and the Dodgers. Shortstop is a key position. This is the very reason that Concepcion is deserving because he was a vital cog in the Big Red Machine dynasty. And, don't dismiss the election by the Veterans Committee because those guys PLAYED the game, they didn't WRITE about it. Would you take the word of Teddy Ballgame about whether a player was any good over any beat writer you ever read? I damn sure would. I will grant you there is a faction of cronies involved, but they are at least realistic.
Originally posted by shortcircuit You are smarter than that. You KNOW why they were elected, don't you? They both played SS on two of the greatest dynasties in the game, the Yankees and the Dodgers. Shortstop is a key position. This is the very reason that Concepcion is deserving because he was a vital cog in the Big Red Machine dynasty. And, don't dismiss the election by the Veterans C ...[text shortened]... ld. I will grant you there is a faction of cronies involved, but they are at least realistic.
They wouldn't have waited until 1994 to elect Rizzuto if that was the main reason. And I wouldn't call a team losing 6 World Series a "dynasty" in Reese's case. My point stands.
Originally posted by no1marauder They wouldn't have waited until 1994 to elect Rizzuto if that was the main reason. And I wouldn't call a team losing 6 World Series a "dynasty" in Reese's case. My point stands.
Chief, getting to the World Series that many times in a row, win or lose, is a hell of an accomplishment. And, uh, who, were they losing them to, Alvin & the Chipmonks? Scooter Rizzuto was not admitted based on his broadcasting. If he had been, they call it the Ford Frick award. Rizzuto and Reese were elected as players and my point stands.
Originally posted by shortcircuit Chief, getting to the World Series that many times in a row, win or lose, is a hell of an accomplishment. And, uh, who, were they losing them to, Alvin & the Chipmonks? Scooter Rizzuto was not admitted based on his broadcasting. If he had been, they call it the Ford Frick award. Rizzuto and Reese were elected as players and my point stands.
Whatever; it seems like an inevitable character trait of some people on this board that they just cannot accept any facts that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Rizzuto wasn't inducted until 38 years after his career ended, but according to you he was inducted because of being a good SS on a great team. Seems funny it took sooooooooooooo long for the Vet Committee to figure that out.
I think certian guys get in as blend of their playing and broadcasting career. Rizzuto is one and I think it is possible that Joe Torre gets votes for his playing career when he wouldn't had he not manged.
Originally posted by no1marauder Whatever; it seems like an inevitable character trait of some people on this board that they just cannot accept any facts that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Rizzuto wasn't inducted until 38 years after his career ended, but according to you he was inducted because of being a good SS on a great team. Seems funny it took sooooooooooooo long for the Vet Committee to figure that out.
Your preconceived notions not withstanding, would you like to talk to the folks instrumental in getting him elected on the Verterans committee? Yogi Berra was the point man on the push. Ted Williams wanted Bobby Doerr in the HOF and he was the point man for his election. Tony Lazzeri was elected I believe 2 years prior to Rizzuto. Berra and Williams were at the front of that push. Why don't you ask Yogi if Scooter was elected based on his announcing abilities. You are out of your element here because I know thia to be fact through conversations with Berra right after Rizzuto was elected. He had been trying for 5 years to get him elected. I guess his announcing may have improved markedly during those 5 years, but that would be like saying Harry Caray improved his last 5 years broadacsting for the Cubs.
FYI, there are still many deserving players that should be inducted by the Veterans Committee, but they may never make it because of the dumb impositions placed on the comittee to induct a certain percentage of Negro League players, a percentage of executives and a percentage of umpires. Then they are limited on the total number of players that can be elected in any given year. This makes it virtually impossible to elect more than 1 or 2 deserving players in any year. When you have split factions pushing their candidate, it often ends in both players coming up short of the percentage necessary. Now that Joe Morgan is so heavily involved, his major impetus is for the induction of the Negro League players. He is also one of the biggest naysayers against Pete Rose getting into the HOF which is a joke in itself. Do some investigation on what I have said and then come back and talk with me. I am well connected on this topic and in baseball in general. Bring out all of your dogs, hell haul yourself down, or send someone who is truly knowledgeable like Darvlay and I will show you who knows what.
Originally posted by shortcircuit Your preconceived notions not withstanding, would you like to talk to the folks instrumental in getting him elected on the Verterans committee? Yogi Berra was the point man on the push. Ted Williams wanted Bobby Doerr in the HOF and he was the point man for his election. Tony Lazzeri was elected I believe 2 years prior to Rizzuto. Berra and Williams wer ...[text shortened]... wn, or send someone who is truly knowledgeable like Darvlay and I will show you who knows what.
If you were soooooooooooooo knowledgeable, you'd know none of those conditions applied in the 1970's and 1980's when Rizzuto wasn't elected; the Veterans Committee was totally different then. You're starting to sound like the "National Master".
Originally posted by no1marauder If you were soooooooooooooo knowledgeable, you'd know none of those conditions applied in the 1970's and 1980's when Rizzuto wasn't elected; the Veterans Committee was totally different then. You're starting to sound like the "National Master".
I didn't say they did. Are you going to play twist the statement and start the name calling? If you will READ what I said, those conditions are en force now, so it will make it increasingly more difficult to elect veterans. You can be an absolute ass when people stand up to you. Well I am standing and declaring that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground on this topic. And, I would dearly love to embarrass you further when you discover that what I am saying is absolute fact. Bring it on big boy. Let loose your dogs and I will send them all scurrying for cover. You must not do your research very well, but you are about to get schooled!!
Originally posted by shortcircuit I didn't say they did. Are you going to play twist the statement and start the name calling? If you will READ what I said, those conditions are en force now, so it will make it increasingly more difficult to elect veterans. You can be an absolute ass when people stand up to you. Well I am standing and declaring that you don't know your ass from a hole i ...[text shortened]... rrying for cover. You must not do your research very well, but you are about to get schooled!!
This type of bluster is typical from someone who doesn't know the subject matter and wants to pretend he's "winning" the argument. Say hello to Yogi for me.
Hey #1, Zambrano pitched 7 innings against Florida giving up 2 runs. and lowering his ERA to 2.96. Your wishful fantasy that he's in a tailspin does not seem to match up with reality.
Originally posted by no1marauder Outside of hits and runs scored, none of those are exceptional. Is there any non-power hitter in the HOF who hit only .281 lifetime?
Sure--Marty McManus, Rabbit Maranville, Bobby Wallace...
Future Hall of Famers
24 Jul '08 17:58
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