I shall keep open ears and open mind. The added chromaticism seems like it was a necessity for the added expression needed for new literary demands of modern libretti. I see it emerging in the soaring ideas of Berlioz and the biggest seed sprouting in Wagner. Where I believe Wagner to be a genius is his use of it for deep dramatic effect and evil character leitmotif, doomed love as in Tristan, or doomed gods.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo I shall keep open ears and open mind. The added chromaticism seems like it was a necessity for the added expression needed for new literary demands of modern libretti. I see it emerging in the soaring ideas of Berlioz and the biggest seed sprouting in Wagner. Where I believe Wagner to be a genius is his use of it for deep dramatic effect and evil character leitmotif, doomed love as in Tristan, or doomed gods.
Yes, you are quite correct. Wagner's Tristan was a pivotal point on the road to atonalism. You mentioned Berlioz who is a favourite of mine. I have not read this nor been taught this from anywhere, but did you know that the famous "Tristan chord" which really cannot be analyzed in traditional harmony actually came from Berlioz. Wagner copied the opening melody of the Prelude to Tristan note for note from a scene in Romeo and Juliette by Berlioz. So you can see that virtualy everything comes from somewhere. It just doesn't come from nowhere out of the blue. As Sir Issac Newton said, "If I have achieved anything. it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." Newton was paying tribute to his predecessors and so too was Wagner.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo Music transcends politics. However, I understand where you're coming from. I refuse to watch movies by certain actors because of politics or their past like Polanski. Do not appreciate the child molesters at all. The again, I love Vivaldi and he may have had his way with the orphanage girls where he was music director in Venice. Great art trumps politic ...[text shortened]... ould not be nearly as rich. I can do without movies, but great music is a balsam for the soul.
Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn Yes, you are quite correct. Wagner's Tristan was a pivotal point on the road to atonalism. You mentioned Berlioz who is a favourite of mine. I have not read this nor been taught this from anywhere, but did you know that the famous "Tristan chord" which really cannot be analyzed in traditional harmony actually came from Berlioz. Wagner copied the openin ...[text shortened]... shoulders of giants." Newton was paying tribute to his predecessors and so too was Wagner.
I also enjoy that Wagner used atonality to resolve tension or to add tension. His music was very different from anything else of its day. Also being his own librettist afforded him the ability to already have musical ideas in mind for characters, scenes, moods. I enjoy Berlioz because he was bombastic without presumption, grandiose without overpowering the listener, and used brass, orchestra size and choruses in manners they had not before. A true iconoclast.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo I also enjoy that Wagner used atonality to resolve tension or to add tension. His music was very different from anything else of its day. Also being his own librettist afforded him the ability to already have musical ideas in mind for characters, scenes, moods. I enjoy Berlioz because he was bombastic without presumption, grandiose without overpowering ...[text shortened]... , and used brass, orchestra size and choruses in manners they had not before. A true iconoclast.
have been listening to Berg's violin concerto now for several days. Perhaps the absence of form, my inability to recognize patterns such as beginning and end affect my enjoyment. Do not find it nearly as dislikeable as I did in the past, but admit I still do not like it as much as more traditional music. I may have reached the limits of my aesthetic perceptional ability.
Days of Berg populate my mind. I have to reach for Mozart to cleanse my ears of the endless, amorphous din left behind in my mind by dodecaphony. I pronounce myself unready for atonality unless released by the occasional, traditional tonal music inserted within. I listened to Mozart's piano concerto#24 in C#minor. It soothes my soul and perks up my ears. I follow this with a little Wagner, some Puccini, Cilea or even the occasional oratorio. If this does not work, I reach for Boccherini's Stabat Mater. If this does not do the trick then a Beethoven quartet does the trick! I swear I tried!!!!!
Originally posted by scacchipazzo Days of Berg populate my mind. I have to reach for Mozart to cleanse my ears of the endless, amorphous din left behind in my mind by dodecaphony. I pronounce myself unready for atonality unless released by the occasional, traditional tonal music inserted within. I listened to Mozart's piano concerto#24 in C#minor. It soothes my soul and perks up my ears ...[text shortened]... r. If this does not do the trick then a Beethoven quartet does the trick! I swear I tried!!!!!
You're doing just fine. A return to Mozart is always in order and that particular piano concerto is a beauty. Your ears and mind need a rest when you immerse yourself in atonality, but don't give up on it. A little goes a long way. It will probably never be a favourite of yours. It isn't for me too, but I still turn to it because it is the music of our time and reflects who we are.
Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn You're doing just fine. A return to Mozart is always in order and that particular piano concerto is a beauty. Your ears and mind need a rest when you immerse yourself in atonality, but don't give up on it. A little goes a long way. It will probably never be a favourite of yours. It isn't for me too, but I still turn to it because it is the music of our time and reflects who we are.
Kind and patient as usual with us mere mortals. Indeed I have not totally abandoned it. It is much more work than Beethoven's late quartets ever were. And some of it I do like. I love how Berlioz uses dissonance like in his Grande symphonie funebre et triomphale. So my ears are taking baby steps along the way.
Hi guys, excellent thread, interesting read! Attila, people with your kind of musical knowledge are rare, I would say especially at chess forums. Great reading. Read lots of things I didn't know about.
Couldn't help but notice - Mozart 24th concerto is c minor, not c# minor (detail, I know, but I played it and c minor and c# minor are actually rather different). Interestingly enough it is the lesser known of the 2 minor concertos Mozart wrote, but nevertheless at least as wonderful as the d minor.
The Ysaye sonatas for solo violin are awesome, although I must say I'm mainly familiar with the wellknown 3rd ('Ballade'😉.
I think attilathehorn mentioned that Mozart almost exactly plays a 12tone mode in his 40th symphony. I still find it amazing that the theme of the b minor prelude from Bach's Wohltemperierte Klavier, Book 1 uses all the 12 chromatic tones (doesn't it?).
I have a book with music by Bach (Fantasien, Preludien und Fugen) which has amongst others the Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue, where it's already sometimes hard to distinguish a definite tonal centre, but for you guys it might be interesting to see the Prelude and Fugue in c minor, because when I sight-read the (unfortunately unfinished) fugue for the first time, it was really hard to understand. Extremely dissonant sounds, still clear counterpoint (of course) but even gets a kind of atonality about it.
Funny lawyers were mentioned in this thread. I'm studying law beside my piano studies, although indeed the law studies tend to be forgotten a little too often...
Originally posted by davaniel Hi guys, excellent thread, interesting read! Attila, people with your kind of musical knowledge are rare, I would say especially at chess forums. Great reading. Read lots of things I didn't know about.
Couldn't help but notice - Mozart 24th concerto is c minor, not c# minor (detail, I know, but I played it and c minor and c# minor are actually rather diffe ...[text shortened]... ano studies, although indeed the law studies tend to be forgotten a little too often...
Hi, davaniel. As you can see from the thread attila is a professional musician whilst I am only a music lover. Glad you have enjoyed the thread. Indeed Mozart's 24th concerto is Cminor, not c#minor. A glorious piece. Indeed I believe attila would have made a wonderful lawyer. Anyone who can persuade me to listen to Berg, Schoenberg, Webbern, etc. is quite a persuasive person. Hope you make a wonderful lawyer. Some day I shall learn how to read music and enjoy music even more.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo Hi, davaniel. As you can see from the thread attila is a professional musician whilst I am only a music lover. Glad you have enjoyed the thread. Indeed Mozart's 24th concerto is Cminor, not c#minor. A glorious piece. Indeed I believe attila would have made a wonderful lawyer. Anyone who can persuade me to listen to Berg, Schoenberg, Webbern, etc. is qui ...[text shortened]... ou make a wonderful lawyer. Some day I shall learn how to read music and enjoy music even more.
Ha! I will probably not become a lawyer. I'm a pianist. Only problem might be making money, but still. Remember Prokofiev being mentioned. Try listening the 3rd Piano Concerto. I'm preparing it now for concerts and competitions (that is, in between the beers and chess games).
I love Prokofiev. Never had the finger agility to play piano well, nor did I ever learn music. I has been quite a labor of love for me to have taught myself to enjoy even some fairly obscure music. Just don't drink too much beer then play chess. You will then have to make a posting mea culpa about blunders like eladar did.
I enjoyed the repartee with attila very much. He is intelligent yet humble, knowledgeable, yet modest. I hope to hear him play live some day! And you, too!
Thank you for the compliments. As a horn player, I want to say that today, May 17, is the birthday of possibly the greatest horn player of all, Dennis Brain (1921-1957) and the horn player that my generation grew up to, as well as the previous and following generations. As you can see he died young. He died in a car accident outside of London and memorial concerts in his memory were held all over the world. He was an Englishman who came from a horn playing family as his father, uncle, and grandfather were all well known, but Dennis out-shone all of them. He was kind, generous, sincere, modest and beloved by all who knew him.
Death sometimes takes those of great talent too soon. I hope that heaven gained a horn player to help sub for good ol Gabe up there. It is too bad coming by a recording of such a player would be difficult.
I was thinking of key signatures and how these influence the mood of a piece. I and other noobs (musically speaking) are led to believe major keys are bright/cheerful and minor keys dark/brooding. Brahms symphony #3 in F major is quite the exception. Talk about dissonance used to great effect. That opening movement is quite remarkable and shakes you out of any doldrums you might have been experiencing. While it is not dark, it certainly is not cheerful. I love Brahms.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo Death sometimes takes those of great talent too soon. I hope that heaven gained a horn player to help sub for good ol Gabe up there. It is too bad coming by a recording of such a player would be difficult.
I was thinking of key signatures and how these influence the mood of a piece. I and other noobs (musically speaking) are led to believe major key ...[text shortened]... might have been experiencing. While it is not dark, it certainly is not cheerful. I love Brahms.
>Recordings of Dennis Brain are not that difficult to find. His famous recording of the Mozart concertos (he made others too) were made in 1953 and have never been out of the catalogues. Not even Sinatra can match that. His recording of the Strauss and Hindemith concertos have probably never been matched, and his one of the Schumann Adagio & Allegro as well as the Dukas Villanelle are phenominal. He is the god all horn players look up to.
>As for key signatures, these have always fascinated me. Minor keys can be happy and major keys can be sad, but a piece transposed into another key can change its character.
>Interestingly, Beethoven never used B minor. He modulated to it a few times but quickly modulated away from it. For some reason, he didn't like it, in contrast to Bach and Tchaikovsky who wrote often in that key. Haydn seemed to love D major, but of course it's the easiest key for violins so you see it in at least 20% of his more than 100 symphonies. A composer's choice of key can be a topic for deep discussion.
02 May '09 11:56
Wagner's Ring Cycle
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