Originally posted by kirksey957I stumbled across this interesting discussion quite by accident. I was wondering what was going on with the "Religion only" request, why did it take so long, and notice that it has got onto a quite interesting track.
I take issue with the idea that only blacks can make fun of blacks. Blacks make fun (and for good reasons) of whites.
Why the hell can't I do the same in a way that is in the same spirit of goading that they do?
My point in this post is that the subject between kirksey and pccaspian deserves a thread on its own. Maybe either one of you could make a statement which we can discuss?
I find myself strongly agreeing with pccaspian. Kirk's statement that I quoted above is just not true. It is a fact of society that white's can no longer poke fun good-humouredly at blacks, and maybe for good reason. However, the reverse is not true.
I have a black colleague who, when he comes late to a meeting (which happens frequently) says in a disarming way: "You can take the nigger out of the bush, but you can't take the bush out of the nigger!" We all smile in an embarrassed sort of way, because if one of the whites had said it, it would have been cause for instant dismissal.
And a further result of the statement is that we can not then address the actual issue (his coming late!) in an objective way.
So, the issue is far more complex than Kirksey makes it out to be, with a shrug and a grin.
So please, let's get away for once from all the religious garbage and verbosity and let's debate the issue of racism from both sides in a constructive manner!
In peace
CJ
Originally posted by CalJustLet me ask you a question as you brought up some interesting thoughts. In your opinion is it an issue of racial prejudice that the problem with your work colleague cannot be addressed in an objective way?
I stumbled across this interesting discussion quite by accident. I was wondering what was going on with the "Religion only" request, why did it take so long, and notice that it has got onto a quite interesting track.
My point in this post is that [b]the subject between kirksey and pccaspian deserves a thread on its own. Maybe either one of you could ...[text shortened]... nd let's debate the issue of racism from both sides in a constructive manner!
In peace
CJ[/b]
Now let me get tok talking about some of the perception about me that you voiced. As I have said on numerous occasions I engage in parody. If you don't like parody, take it out of the dictionary. Parody, in my opinion, is one of the most effective ways to address prejudice, conflict, and misperceptions. I don't know if you all got this program, but in the early 70's we watched a TV program called "All in the Family" which concerned a very bigoted, but somewhat lovable man. If anything, parody is a mirror to look at ourselves.
I have been castigated (though not castrated) by a few of my clan (some of them former) members for promoting "anti-Christian" ideals with our new clan identity. Yet the very ones who have accused me of this have yet to post a single contribution to ANY thread on religion or faith. I think you know my history in this area. I have been completely comfortable with people like rwingett and bbarr using parody directed at people of faith. I'm not threatened by it in the least. I like them both.
I have said many times that it is not so much about the idea as it is about the relationship. So exactly what would happen with your colleague who comes in late all the time if you were to say, "I know you kind of joke about it in racial terms, but is there a way we can hold you accountable with it NOT being a racial thing?"
Dear Community,
I raised the issue of having a separate religion forum with Russ
by Private Message and he feels that the Religous discussions are
an integral part of the debate environment. Given that threads have
titles, it should be easy to avoid these debates if you have an inherent
objection to them. He feels that creating a separate forum will not
diminish trolling within that new forum, nor will it prevent auxiliary
discussions involving religion out of the 'new' debates forum.
I think that we should consider this issue is closed.
Nemesio
Originally posted by kirksey957Seeing that this thread is now closed, I would like to continue this discussion on another thread.
Let me ask you a question as you brought up some interesting thoughts. In your opinion is it an issue of racial prejudice that the problem with your work colleague cannot be addressed in an objective way?
As I have said on numerous occasions I engage in parody. If you don't like parody, take it out of the dictionary. Parody, in my opinion, is one of the most effective ways to address prejudice, conflict, and misperceptions.
Could you do me the favour to post something we can discuss along the lines you suggest. I do not want to answer in detail to this post, as it would prolong a "declared dead" thread".
But in summary, yes, one could say something along the lines that you suggest, but that would depend on the relationship you have with the person. Under the present climate in SA, ANY criticism of a black person is immediately pounced upon and denounced as "racism", even (and especially!!!) by President Mbeki, who tolerates absolutely no criticism of his government from white sides.
As far as parody is concerned, it is a marvellous tool which I enjoy immensely, and practice myself at times! For example, the East German people after WW2, (from where I come) had a marvellous sense of humour, often at their own expense. Jewish humour is well known. But, again, what pccaspian said is true: when Blacks make fun of themselves it's OK, but when Whites make the same jokes it's somehow NOT kosher! That s a simple fact. It SHOULD not be so, and we may bewail the logic of it, but it is still true in reality.
The end.
I look forwrd to your new post in a new thread.
In peace
CJ
Originally posted by NemesioAllow me to reiterate my complete support of this decision, and my encouragement for all users to trust in its wisdom without further complaint or questioning.
As I said, Russ will not do this and that the matter is closed.
Please read my what I wrote only four posts above yours.
Nemesio
If I'm reading this right RB , we're not ever going to vote for one . There isn't going to be one . We're locked in together . We aren't getting away from one another no matter how much we may want to . I wonder if Russ was one of those kids that liked putting a wasp and a spider in a jar together to see which one would win ?