American Pope Leo XIV Not a Trump Fan

@moonbus said
Germany in 1951, when the reparations treaty was signed with Israel, was not yet even one generation removed from the Nazi regime and not a few Nazis were still alive then.

America is a different case, since tens of millions of people have immigrated to America in the intervening 160 years since slavery was abolished who were not in any way implicated in the slave trade or ...[text shortened]... un before the United States of America existed. That dubious honor goes to European colonial powers.

They can pitch in, then. 😀

And yeah, of course, we owe the Native Americans as well.

But I get your point. I did say families of those directly affected.

@moonbus said
Germany in 1951, when the reparations treaty was signed with Israel, was not yet even one generation removed from the Nazi regime and not a few Nazis were still alive then.

America is a different case, since tens of millions of people have immigrated to America in the intervening 160 years since slavery was abolished who were not in any way implicated in the slave trade or ...[text shortened]... un before the United States of America existed. That dubious honor goes to European colonial powers.

In the case of Germany paying reparations to Jews, it was to the immediate holocaust survivor and to their spouse. Children got nothing except what they were able to use while their parents were alive. Upon the death of both holocaust surviving parents the payments ceased. Some of the payments were lumpsum and others were monthly pension or health benefits etc eetc.

It is only a complete idiot and/or greedy bum, that will expect colonial slave masters to pay reparations for an event which took place hundreds of years ago when both slave master and slave are now long dead for over 5 generations. That is more than enough time to forget and move on, but they rather not. Many of these descendants of former slaves enjoy wallowing in self-pity, living off handouts, begging and complaining, hoping some govt is stupid enough to pay them.

@moonbus said
The church clearly had a policy, though perhaps not written one, of covering up abuse, for example by moving pedophile priests around to other parishes. 400,000 unresolved cases in France and 300,000 in Spain is not due to a few outlier priests misbehaving. This indicates systematic cover-ups, and It goes right to the top. The Church created and maintains an interior culture ...[text shortened]... re telling the child that the child is the sinner. They never get over it, even with therapy.

Yeah - no. This went WAY overboard, just like the #MeToo movement. It is time to put a stop to ALL baseless allegations, leveled without ANY evidence, just he-said, she-said, wild recollections, and assumptions.

Solid evidence should be used to prosecute priests, teachers, or ANYONE who has broken the law. But they get the same presumption of innocence as anyone else.

🙂

@Suzianne said
Reparations to surviving members of slave families in this country is long overdue and will never happen under a Republican administration. Further proof these clowns are descended from Southern Democrat plantation owners (at the very least, ideologically).

The problem with reparations is asking people today who have done nothing wrong to pay for the sins of their fathers - who were doing something morally wrong, but LEGAL, at the time.

So what is the legal basis for that? 😆

@moonbus said
The Federal Republic of Germany paid reparations to Israel. This was right and proper, although the Federal Republic had not caused the Jews any harm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany

My understanding is that only individuals who were personally affected by the German government’s actions got reparations, not their descendants.

@AThousandYoung said
Fair enough. Sonhouse does do that. I haven't paid attention to Spruce.

Don't do it any more, but people piss me off so much I could punch a window out.
Especially Trumpites like little Joe who is incapable of thinking for himself.

@spruce112358 said
The problem with reparations is asking people today who have done nothing wrong to pay for the sins of their fathers - who were doing something morally wrong, but LEGAL, at the time.

So what is the legal basis for that? 😆

Consider this. They are rich Republicans now, actively trying to ruin the country. Their generational wealth came from those plantations. Same old, same old.

@spruce112358 said
Yeah - no. This went WAY overboard, just like the #MeToo movement. It is time to put a stop to ALL baseless allegations, leveled without ANY evidence, just he-said, she-said, wild recollections, and assumptions.

Solid evidence should be used to prosecute priests, teachers, or ANYONE who has broken the law. But they get the same presumption of innocence as anyone else.

🙂

Everyone in the MeToo movement lied?

Here, have some more of that Kool-Aid.

@Rajk999 said
In the case of Germany paying reparations to Jews, it was to the immediate holocaust survivor and to their spouse. Children got nothing except what they were able to use while their parents were alive. Upon the death of both holocaust surviving parents the payments ceased. Some of the payments were lumpsum and others were monthly pension or health benefits etc eetc.

It i ...[text shortened]... f-pity, living off handouts, begging and complaining, hoping some govt is stupid enough to pay them.

It didn't happen in the 1870's because racism was still a thing back then, all the way up to the 1960's. Heck, even today. Look at all the whitefolk in this forum saying "We don't owe the black man nuthin'!!!"

Keep in mind a lot of these are the same people saying the new pope should apologize for everything that happened before him.

@Suzianne said
It didn't happen in the 1870's because racism was still a thing back then, all the way up to the 1960's. Heck, even today. Look at all the whitefolk in this forum saying "We don't owe the black man nuthin'!!!"

Keep in mind a lot of these are the same people saying the new pope should apologize for everything that happened before him.

Apologizing for previous wrongs, which may have been legal and commonplace at the time, is part of becoming a more just and civilized society for the future.

Paying reparations is a separate matter. Many white people in America in the 18th c. were abolitionists (that's why they went to war), and who are we to penalize their descendants now for what other bigots did then? We can hardly take a census, asking "were your ancestors abolitionists, slave holders, or fence-sitters?", now can we?

@moonbus said
Apologizing for previous wrongs, which may have been legal and commonplace at the time, is part of becoming a more just and civilized society for the future.

Paying reparations is a separate matter. Many white people in America in the 18th c. were abolitionists (that's why they went to war), and who are we to penalize their descendants now for what other bigots did then? W ...[text shortened]... a census, asking "were your ancestors abolitionists, slave holders, or fence-sitters?", now can we?

I think one has to think very carefully about what 'justice' means. 😆

Your ancestor stole $10,000 from my ancestor. Neither ancestor left us an inheritance. Do you owe me $10,000 in the name of 'justice'?

Can there be such a thing as 'justice for dead people'? Or is that metaphysically impossible and therefore not worth talking about, let alone pursuing? 😆

@spruce112358 said
I think one has to think very carefully about what 'justice' means. 😆

Your ancestor stole $10,000 from my ancestor. Neither ancestor left us an inheritance. Do you owe me $10,000 in the name of 'justice'?

Can there be such a thing as 'justice for dead people'? Or is that metaphysically impossible and therefore not worth talking about, let alone pursuing? 😆

No, I do not owe you anything, whatever my ancestor did to your ancestor. Private liability ends when the probate court determines that all private debts have been paid and the inheritors have divied up the remains.

Governments and other corporate bodies, however, may indeed 'owe' something to someone to redress historic injustices, if only an apology.

@moonbus said
No, I do not owe you anything, whatever my ancestor did to your ancestor. Private liability ends when the probate court determines that all private debts have been paid and the inheritors have divied up the remains.

Governments and other corporate bodies, however, may indeed 'owe' something to someone to redress historic injustices, if only an apology.

I think you have to address the question of whether or not a government is a being with an indefinite lifespan?

Beings can feel, think about, and apologize for things. But associations are not beings so they don’t think, or feel, or speak - and so don’t really apologize. It’s anthropomorphizing to think they do. Does the table say it is sorry when you stub your toe against it? 😆

@spruce112358 said
I think you have to address the question of whether or not a government is a being with an indefinite lifespan?

Beings can feel, think about, and apologize for things. But associations are not beings so they don’t think, or feel, or speak - and so don’t really apologize. It’s anthropomorphizing to think they do. Does the table say it is sorry when you stub your toe against it? 😆

Corporate bodies have debts and obligations. This is an accepted legal concept.

@moonbus said
Corporate bodies have debts and obligations. This is an accepted legal concept.

But corporations are not beings with ‘human rights.’ This I don’t accept, and it was a mistake to ever go down this road.

They have something akin to rights by virtue of being an association of individuals who have rights. Thus needs further modifying and fleshing out. 😆

A corporation has no natural lifespan, no family, no spouse, and can be ‘killed’ without prejudice.

It’s not a being so doesn’t have our rights. 😆