@Mott-The-Hoople saidSo you think that is fake news, there was never a rule based on testosterone levels? AND many women competitors have more testy than men?
you might want to get updated on ioc rules criteria
I guess that kind of thing falls out of your area of expertise and you can't handle that.
@no1marauder saidSorry, I inadvertently used a double negative. Omit the word "don't".
It's an arbitrary and capricious division (akin to banning blondes from women's events) where it hasn't been shown that transgender female athletes don't have any significant advantage over cisgender ones.
A few wins in the literally hundreds of thousands of women's sporting events per year doesn't establish that.
@no1marauder saidYet they were still women not men? Now compare these two groups I just mentioned along with puberty development of the men in comparison. Did you comparatively look at a picture of William Thomas and the women competitors along with his much improved record leaving men’s competition?
A while back an organization, I believe the IOC, attempted to limit participation in women's events based on testosterone levels. They found, rather unsurprisingly, that many women's athletes had far higher levels than the average woman and the criteria was abandoned.
@no1marauder saidHow about just listening to a conversation between three actual women and 3 trans on the issues, would you agree we both could both maybe learn about each groups feelings? I don’t know what’s in it yet, I just listen to things while working and about to start it, could go either way??
It's a simple question that you seem unable to answer.
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@mike69 said"Much improved"? From the article you quoted but didn't cite:
Yet they were still women not men? Now compare these two groups I just mentioned along with puberty development of the men in comparison. Did you comparatively look at a picture of William Thomas and the women competitors along with his much improved record leaving men’s competition?
"Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[15][16][17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas
It seems she won one major event, but finished behind cisgender women, sometimes well behind them, in every other event.
So her performance was hardly "dominant" and if she's the best example you've got it's very little support for any banning of transgender women for competitive reasons.
@no1marauder saidLost but still look and see the difference. You can also look up his record yourself if you don’t believe the facts I posted, along with his career in the men’s division, to see the difference, it’s not a secret. You never mentioned what differences you’ve personally noticed between boys/men, girls/women in your long life as a boy and a man?
"Much improved"? From the article you quoted but didn't cite:
"Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[15][16][17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas
It seems she won one major event, ...[text shortened]... le you've got it's very little support for any banning of transgender women for competitive reasons.
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@no1marauder
Also didn’t answer to only name a couple here, what makes a man a man physically and separate from a woman?
@mike69 saidI usually don't waste time on this Forum with personal anecdotes that have nothing to do with the subject being debated. I'll stick to that general policy.
@no1marauder
Also didn’t answer to only name a couple here, what makes a man a man physically and separate from a woman?
Are you also claiming a transgender woman isn't a woman? I think I've addressed that thoroughly enough; it's right wing blather not supported in law or medicine.
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@no1marauder saidNothing to see here but a scared, blind, lying liberal scumbag spewing bs to fit his own biased viewpoints. Trans didn’t even come to be until around the 70s and 80s and just recently accepted like it is now with woke liberals with agendas. I guess all of human evolutionary understanding until then got it wrong all of a sudden😂.
I usually don't waste time on this Forum with personal anecdotes that have nothing to do with the subject being debated. I'll stick to that general policy.
Are you also claiming a transgender woman isn't a woman? I think I've addressed that thoroughly enough; it's right wing blather not supported in law or medicine.
@mike69 saidI decided to ask a biologist (well not really but I did do an internet search) and found out they aren't sure sometimes:
@no1marauder
Also didn’t answer to only name a couple here, what makes a man a man physically and separate from a woman?
"About 1.7 percent of the population is intersex and don’t fit neatly into male and female boxes, according to InterAct, an advocacy organization for intersex youth. That’s as common as having naturally red hair. Intersex people may have any of a wide variety of sex development differences including Turner syndrome, androgen insensitivity, Klinefelter syndrome and others.
Some may be born with both ovarian and testicular tissue, and thus might be classified as both male and female under the terms of the executive order, says Sylvan Fraser Anthony, InterAct’s legal and policy director.
Intersex individuals often undergo surgeries as infants or young children to make their genitals or internal organs conform to the sex their parents choose. They may also need to take hormones such as estrogen or testosterone to maintain their health, says Sharpe, who worries that a binary definition of sex could be used to deny intersex people access to health care.
Such sex hormones also “play an important role in many facets of development, including whether your skin is painfully dry or not, or how tall you grow during puberty, or whether you’re able to maintain bone density,” they say.
Choosing any single definer of sex is bound to sow confusion.
“If [they] use chromosomes, there’s a whole lot of individuals who will be quite surprised to learn that they’re male,” Lents says. “If they use gametes, they’re going to exclude some individuals … but they’ll also potentially open the door to including people that they didn’t intend.” For instance, people who have X and Y chromosomes but make female gametes would be eligible under the definition to compete in women’s sports.
“The biology of sex and gender makes it very clear,” Lents says. “These are not hard categories with clear definitions.”
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/biological-sex-male-female-intersex
There's a lot of other interesting stuff in that article. I suggest you read and Cliff and Mott have someone read it to them (very slowly of course).
@no1marauder saidI’m not going to read your bs that could be countered I’m sure, just more of your clown answers not hitting the topic.
I decided to ask a biologist (well not really but I did do an internet search) and found out they aren't sure sometimes:
"About 1.7 percent of the population is intersex and don’t fit neatly into male and female boxes, according to InterAct, an advocacy organization for intersex youth. That’s as common as having naturally red hair. Intersex people may have any of a wid ...[text shortened]... article. I suggest you read and Cliff and Mott have someone read it to them (very slowly of course).
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@mike69 saidMy, my you're a touchy POS aren't you?
Nothing to see here but a scared, blind, lying liberal scumbag spewing bs to fit his own biased viewpoints. Trans didn’t even come to be until around the 70s and 80s and just recently accepted like it is now with woke liberals with agendas. I guess all of human evolutionary understanding until then got it wrong all of a sudden😂.
Your anger shows this has nothing to do with any concern about competition in women's sports (which you never even heard right wingers talk about before the last few years except with scorn) and only with your hate.
You're an ignorant SOB as well; transgender people have existed for as long as we can tell: https://www.buzzfeed.com/shawnstensberg/a-brief-history-of-being-trans
The first "sex change" surgery as far as I could find occurred in 1952: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095
Stupid is no way to live, Mike.
EDIT: It appears male to female surgical procedures were performed as early as 1930 in Germany. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/
Learn something new every day unless you're stubbornly ignorant (not mentioning any names but .......).
@mike69 saidDidn't think you would; it's a bit more advanced than someone with a 3rd Grade education could handle anyway.
Nothing to see here but a scared, blind, lying liberal scumbag spewing bs to fit his own biased viewpoints. Trans didn’t even come to be until around the 70s and 80s and just recently accepted like it is now with woke liberals with agendas. I guess all of human evolutionary understanding until then got it wrong all of a sudden😂.
@no1marauder saidJust between you and me, this is so funny, I'm sorry. Sonhouse told me rhat I am obsessed with the tran people!!! Take that any way you want to, as we weigh his take on the tranee world. He says this, as his obsession with Trump has set records which will NEVER be broken, and as you pursue tran-ism, somewhat obsessively.
"Much improved"? From the article you quoted but didn't cite:
"Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[15][16][17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas
It seems she won one major event, ...[text shortened]... le you've got it's very little support for any banning of transgender women for competitive reasons.
Why are democrats jumpin ship like rats. Hey, should all auto pen pardons be negated? Not what they WILL do, I am asking you what they should do.
@AverageJoe1 saidFunny, I didn't start the thread, so who's "obsessed" about the subject?
Just between you and me, this is so funny, I'm sorry. Sonhouse told me rhat I am obsessed with the tran people!!! Take that any way you want to, as we weigh his take on the tranee world. He says this, as his obsession with Trump has set records which will NEVER be broken, and as you pursue tran-ism, somewhat obsessively.
Why are democrats jumpin ship like rats. ...[text shortened]... hould all auto pen pardons be negated? Not what they WILL do, I am asking you what they should do.