Apple labor abuses

Originally posted by adam warlock
Would you let your 15/16 year old son work in the condition that are available in these types of jobs?

Sweatshop conditions that is.

Not if I could prevent it; nor would I "let" my 18 or 19 year old work in those conditions; nor my 34 or 35 year old.

What does that have to do with whether there's anything morally wrong with Chinese rules that allow 15 year old factory workers?

How do you know the Apple factories are "sweatshops" in any case?

I agree with sh76, I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a 15 year old working. It's just more effective to send them to school, in an economic sense.

Originally posted by sh76
What does that have to do with whether there's anything morally wrong with Chinese rules that allow 15 year old factory workers?

How do you know the Apple factories are "sweatshops" in any case?

What does that have to do with whether there's anything morally wrong with Chinese rules that allow 15 year old factory workers?
It doesn't have much to do with it. You're right in that respect, but just tell me why wouldn't you allow them to work like that. Certainly you something that isn't right with it.

How do you know the Apple factories are "sweatshops" in any case?
I'm assuming the most likely event given the fact that abroad factories from Apple are in China Taiwan, Singapore, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, and the Czech Republic. All very well known countries that use child labor in sweatshops. Most of the time the children have to work more than 12 hours a day for less than a dollar.In reality this is a very complicated affair, but just brushing it off with the argument that we 15 year are biological adults isn't much of an excuse. I don't think that the problem is that they work at 15, but the (most likely conditions) that they work at 15.

Originally posted by adam warlock
[b]What does that have to do with whether there's anything morally wrong with Chinese rules that allow 15 year old factory workers?
It doesn't have much to do with it. You're right in that respect, but just tell me why wouldn't you allow them to work like that. Certainly you something that isn't right with it.

How do you know the Apple roblem is that they work at 15, but the (most likely conditions) that they work at 15.

[/b]There is child labour in sweatshops in the Czech Republic. Really?

The Czech Republic has universal, free, mantatory education up to the age of 15.

I don't know why Apple is being picked on here when there are far worse offenders. You would have to go to great lengths to truely avoid child labor these day, and really what's the point? If a kid is forced to choose between a sweat shop and starvation, is the latter any better?

This rock and hard place scenerio makes the case for government regulated capitalism.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I don't know why Apple is being picked on here when there are far worse offenders. You would have to go to great lengths to truely avoid child labor these day, and really what's the point? If a kid is forced to choose between a sweat shop and starvation, is the latter any better?

This rock and hard place scenerio makes the case for government regulated capitalism.

Unregulated capitalism is a contradiction in terms.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
There is child labour in sweatshops in the Czech Republic. Really?

The Czech Republic has universal, free, mantatory education up to the age of 15.

There is child labour in sweatshops in the Czech Republic. Really?
http://www.euro.who.int/eehc/implementation/20050908_1

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I don't know why Apple is being picked on here when there are far worse offenders.

Be assured that I pick on all of them: http://www.laborrights.org/sites/default/files/publications-and-resources/sweatshop_hall_shame_2010.pdf

Yes you're right. Between having to starve to death or having to work 12 plus hours shifts to earn something like a dollar a day is a very hard choice, but in my view people that live in the countries where such corporations are based should really press them for good working conditions of the nationals where the factories are placed.
It's not about working at 15/16 (even though this still is relevant), it is about the working conditions these people have to face.

Originally posted by adam warlock
b]There is child labour in sweatshops in the Czech Republic. Really?
http://www.euro.who.int/eehc/implementation/20050908_1[/b]

Your link seems to underscore my point? Child prostitution is certainly an issue, but there are no "sweatshops" making products for the western world - they are part of it.

Originally posted by adam warlock
Yes you're right between having to starve to death or having to work 12 plush hours shifts to earn something like a dollar a day is a very hard choice, but in view people that live in the countries where such corporations are based should really press them for good working conditions.

You make the case that there is such a thing as 'the violence of poverty'. It's interesting that libertarians refuse to see this as a form of "force". Indeed, their refusal is a kind of "fraud". Whoops. The two wheels of the WajomaWorld philosophy have fallen off.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Your link seems to underscore my point? Child prostitution is certainly an issue, but there are no "sweatshops" making products for the western world - they are part of it.

"We do not consider child labour to be a pressing problem in the Czech Republic. Generally speaking, it is banned. Exceptions certainly do exist."

"the actual health risk following from child labour... has been brought down to a reasonable level"

"To a limited extent, child labour might be used or misused in small family enterprises, farms, and services. This is certainly not a frequent event"

"With the liberalization of society in 1989, a steep increase in the crime rate occurred along with the exploitation of children for illegal income and activities. The public health protection authorities have no information about such activities. Those problems are in the competence of police and other authorities conducting criminal proceedings. In any case, the scope of those activities is not likely to be alarming due to the compulsory school attendance mentioned above, along with the quite strict system of checking up on it. It should be stressed that along with its limited scope, the problem applies mainly to the socially deprived segments of the population."

So there indeed is a problem of child labor in poor conditions even though it doesn't seem to be an alarming one. But still it exists.

Originally posted by FMF
You make the case that there is such a thing as 'the violence of poverty'. It's interesting that libertarians refuse to see this as a form of "force". Indeed, their refusal is a kind of "fraud". Whoops. The two wheels of the WajomaWorld philosophy have fallen off.

I don't know if I correctly understood what you try to say but for me laissez-faire capitalism is a a very strong form of coercion: People have to to work in order to have salaries in order to not to starve to death.
And the poorer you are the more you'll be likely to endure just to not to see yourself or your family to starve to death.

What are the two wheels of the WajomaWorld philosophy, by the way?

Originally posted by adam warlock
What are the two wheels of the WajomaWorld philosophy, by the way?

"No force". "No fraud". Everything else is alright.

Originally posted by FMF
"No force". "No fraud". Everything else is alright.

Hmmmm. Aren't you oversimplifying? 😛

But if you remove force and fraud from the world I think most of its problems would be solved, don't you think so too.

The only problem, of course, would be an agreement on the definitions of force and fraud.

Originally posted by adam warlock
[b]What does that have to do with whether there's anything morally wrong with Chinese rules that allow 15 year old factory workers?
It doesn't have much to do with it. You're right in that respect, but just tell me why wouldn't you allow them to work like that. Certainly you something that isn't right with it.[/b]

Well, I'd alter that to that I'd concede that there's something that's not pleasant about it. I wouldn't want my children to work in those factories because I envision and will try to help build a better life for them; not because I believe there's an inherent immorality in 15 year olds working.

In any case, maybe the Apple factories are "sweatshops" and maybe they work 7.5 hours a day with 4 coffee breaks and have 4 weeks of paid vacation a year. I don't know. But I didn't see any indication from the article that this is a "sweatshop" and in any case, that's not what the subject of the controversy was- the subject was age. Working conditions are another matter.