@spruce112358 saidAn apple analogy again? Go buy an apple for crying out loud.
Once upon a time, an Arab had an apple. But a Jew wanted the apple. So he went to the UN and said, “it is unfair, and I am very emotional about this.”
So the UN said, “Gosh! We don’t want any trouble,” and divided the apple in half and gave half to the Jew. But the Arab said “This is some bullscat! No!”
So the Jew said, “you don’t want your half? Ok, we’ll take tha ...[text shortened]... e problem with humans is that most are fundamentally unable to understand the concept of justice. 😆
@spruce112358 saidThat is the kind of false information that appeal to ignorant Muslims and their supporters. Here is the truth:
"In words you might understand - Arab people lived on some land - Brits with guns and power came along and said with little consultation and consideration - this now belongs to Jews (Jews with guns and power, like Lehi, Irgun, Stern Gang), we will take what Jews want/ need and there is little you can do about it." 😆
Jews made up about 35% of the population of Palestine at the time of the partition in 1947. They were big enough to have their own state. Clearly the Arabs were also big enough to have their own state, hence the partition - 52% / 47% in favour of Israel, but with a large amount of desert land in the Israel portion. Partition was made, the British exited, then the Arabs made war to get all the land. Apparently 47% was not enough for the Arabs.
Had they accepted the partition they would have had a viable state living in peace alongside Israel. Instead they chose war so now they have nothing, except death and destruction.
@Rajk999 saidUnder the Ottomans, in 1918, Jews made up only 10% of the population of Palestine. Britain allowed and encouraged the massive Jewish "invasion" of mostly Russian and Polish Jews into the terrority SO THAT by 1947 it was 35%. 😆
That is the kind of false information that appeal to ignorant Muslims and their supporters. Here is the truth:
Jews made up about 35% of the population of Palestine at the time of the partition in 1947. They were big enough to have their own state. Clearly the Arabs were also big enough to have their own state, hence the partition - 52% / 47% in favour of Israel, but wit ...[text shortened]... ace alongside Israel. Instead they chose war so now they have nothing, except death and destruction.
The 90% of Arabs who lived in Palestine had no say in the matter. That was wrong. That was a violation of their rights - doesn't matter which "Empire" was currently claiming "jurisdiction" - colonialism IS a violation of the rights of people who live in the colony! BY DEFINITION!
(NB. Americans are generally opposed to "massive, uncontrolled migrations" - in fact we are fairly apoplectic about it. This would be the equivalent of 82 MILLION South Americans streaming into the US over 30 years, with absolutely no controls.)
As for partition, the Arabs didn't want it. But again, their rights were trampled - this time by the UN (where they did not have a vote and had no representation).
Creating Israel, as it was done, was absolutely a crime against Palestinian Arabs which completely deprived them of their human and civil rights. 😆
@spruce112358 saidWhat a load of bull. In 1918, Palestine became a British territory. The British can do whatever they pleased with it. Arabs had no say. They had all the surrounding territory around Israel.
Under the Ottomans, in 1918, Jews made up only 10% of the population of Palestine. Britain allowed and encouraged the massive Jewish "invasion" of mostly Russian and Polish Jews into the terrority SO THAT by 1947 it was 35%. 😆
The 90% of Arabs who lived in Palestine had no say in the matter. That was wrong. That was a violation of their rights - doesn't matter which ...[text shortened]... a crime against Palestinian Arabs which completely deprived them of their human and civil rights. 😆
Read that again ... In a British Overseas Territory, the Crown is in charge, and although the residents in these territories may be consulted, in the end the decision is up to the head of state.
Arabs were not in charge of Palestine. They owned pieces of land and lived under the British and enjoyed a better standard of living than if they were in charge. The British built roads, hospitals, schools and other infrastructure required to run a country.
Between 1918 and 1948, here is a list of the improvements made by the British. This is stuff beyond the ability of Arabs, who basically lived in poverty under the Ottomans. Note - Arabs are a backward people and do not deserve to have a country.
**************************************
From Perplexity:
Infrastructure Built by the British
Transportation Infrastructure:
Railways: The British expanded and modernized the railway network, which connected major cities like Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem. This facilitated transportation of goods and people.
Roads: A comprehensive road network was built to improve connectivity across the region, supporting both civilian and military needs.
Ports: The port of Haifa was significantly developed to become a major commercial hub, handling a substantial portion of Palestine's trade.
Utilities and Public Services:
Water Supply: The British improved water supply systems, including the construction of pipelines and reservoirs, to support urban and agricultural development.
Electricity: Electricity generation and distribution were expanded, with power plants and transmission lines built to serve urban centers and industrial areas.
Telecommunications: A modern telecommunications network, including telephone and telegraph services, was established to facilitate communication.
Military Infrastructure:
Airbases: RAF Ramat David near Haifa was one of several airbases built to support British military operations in the region.
Military Bases: Various military bases were constructed to house British forces and support regional defense strategies.
Public Buildings and Institutions:
Government Buildings: The British built administrative buildings, such as the Government House in Jerusalem, to serve as the seat of government.
Educational Institutions: Schools and universities were established or expanded to improve education standards.
Healthcare Facilities: Hospitals and healthcare services were developed to enhance public health.
These infrastructure developments played a crucial role in shaping the economic and social landscape of Palestine during the British Mandate period. After the partition in 1948, much of this infrastructure was inherited by the newly formed State of Israel, while other parts fell under Jordanian or Egyptian control.
***********************************************
@Rajk999 saidNo. See, this is where you are completely, utterly, and totally wrong.
The British can do whatever they pleased with it.
Reverse this ONE assumption, and the rest falls into place, Raj. 😆
Governmental authority comes ONLY from the consent of the governed. Always. Always has, always will. This is an unchangeable law of the Universe and is true everywhere, at all times, in all places. 😆
@Rajk999 saidWithout the consent of the governed, this is all irrelevant. 😆
Between 1918 and 1948, here is a list of the improvements made by the British. This is stuff beyond the ability of Arabs, who basically lived in poverty under the Ottomans. Note - Arabs are a backward people and do not deserve to have a country.
**************************************
From Perplexity:
Infrastructure Built by the British
Transportation Infrastructure: ...[text shortened]... r parts fell under Jordanian or Egyptian control.
***********************************************
Nice stuff, sure. But useless without democracy.
That's justice. That's peace. 😆
@Rajk999 saidYou keep repeating this gross historical error no matter how many times you are corrected. No, Palestine did not become a British Overseas Territory after WWI:
What a load of bull. In 1918, Palestine became a British territory. The British can do whatever they pleased with it. Arabs had no say. They had all the surrounding territory around Israel.
Read that again ... In a British Overseas Territory, the Crown is in charge, and although the residents in these territories may be consulted, in the end the decision is up to the ...[text shortened]... ge. The British built roads, hospitals, schools and other infrastructure required to run a country.
"The Council of the League of Nations:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and
Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine;"
Article 2
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.
https://worldhistorycommons.org/mandate-palestine#doc_transcription
So the British couldn't do "whatever they pleased with it", they were limited by the terms of the Mandate.
@Rajk999 saidThis is again, as you well know, grossly historically inaccurate. The Zionists in Palestine had been waging war against their Arab neighbors and the British army for years before 1948, including during WWII.
That is the kind of false information that appeal to ignorant Muslims and their supporters. Here is the truth:
Jews made up about 35% of the population of Palestine at the time of the partition in 1947. They were big enough to have their own state. Clearly the Arabs were also big enough to have their own state, hence the partition - 52% / 47% in favour of Israel, but wit ...[text shortened]... ace alongside Israel. Instead they chose war so now they have nothing, except death and destruction.
@spruce112358 saidThe UN General Assembly vote for partition had no legal authority and Arabs in Palestine were within their rights to reject such a lopsided, unworkable plan. The map was ridiculous; the States were divided into three separate chunks of land for each "State", barely touching each other. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208958/
Under the Ottomans, in 1918, Jews made up only 10% of the population of Palestine. Britain allowed and encouraged the massive Jewish "invasion" of mostly Russian and Polish Jews into the terrority SO THAT by 1947 it was 35%. 😆
The 90% of Arabs who lived in Palestine had no say in the matter. That was wrong. That was a violation of their rights - doesn't matter which ...[text shortened]... a crime against Palestinian Arabs which completely deprived them of their human and civil rights. 😆
Moreover, it would have left hardly any Jews in the Arab area, but more than 400,000 Arabs in a Zionist State which was forever deemed to be run by Jews no matter what. https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Partition-and-lead-up-to-violence.pdf
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@Rajk999
I'm trying to establish what we are talking about in general terms before examining the specifics. Your inability to see things from a more objective perspective makes it impossible to continue talking seriously about this issue. Still at least you're happy in your delusions, good luck with that!
@spruce112358 saidWrong. Governmental authority comes with the consent of the governed in some cases. In other cases it comes if you are a conquered people. Palestinians at that time were a conquered people and lived under the umbrella of the colonial British Empire.
No. See, this is where you are completely, utterly, and totally wrong.
Reverse this ONE assumption, and the rest falls into place, Raj. 😆
Governmental authority comes ONLY from the consent of the governed. Always. Always has, always will. This is an unchangeable law of the Universe and is true everywhere, at all times, in all places. 😆
@spruce112358 saidIrrelevant for who? Palestinians at that time enjoyed the benefits of living under the British. It was a British colony and there was no such thing as democracy at that time. If you chose to fight then that is fine .. you get killed.
Without the consent of the governed, this is all irrelevant. 😆
Nice stuff, sure. But useless without democracy.
That's justice. That's peace. 😆
@beardmusic saidSounds very vague. We are discussing a very specific event, which has a very specific history. What exactly is my delusion?
@Rajk999
I'm trying to establish what we are talking about in general terms before examining the specifics. Your inability to see things from a more objective perspective makes it impossible to continue talking seriously about this issue. Still at least you're happy in your delusions, good luck with that!