Failure to Prevent Suicide

it's a sad case, i don't think the award should be significant as it sounds like the psychologist did all they could whilst respecting the patients confidence. it sounds like it should be reviewed in terms of what were the best actions more then compensation , if the police were contacted could it have made a difference would they have even been able to respond, would they have just reffered it back to the people treating him already...

I'm wondering on whose behalf the suit would be filed, and their justification for thinking they are more innocent in this than the psychologist.

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Originally posted by Scriabin
I've been put unwillingly in the position of consulting an attorney over the question of whether to file suit against a psychologist for negligence in the death by suicide of one of her patients to whom I was related.

The claim would be based on the theory that as the psychologist knew from the patient's mouth that he was a danger to himself, and also kn ...[text shortened]... .

I'm not going to argue about any of this.

I'm just looking for thoughtful reactions,

If people want to kill themselves, let them do it. Its their life they're ending.

Nobody should be held responsible for failing to prevent suicide.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
just try, and see if the attorney offers to pick up the case. probably they'd only get paid if the case succeeds. their expenses for failed cases are likely to be paid by cases that do succeed. there might be an option to finance the case yourself, win or lose. doesn't hurt to consult, in any event. even to consult more than one attorney.

did consult with firm most experienced in these matters. got a hardball, realistic read on the matter. didn't change my take on it, as I've not wanted to proceed down this road from the first. I'm doing this to accommodate the legitimate emotional needs of my wife and daughter who need to understand what, as a lawyer myself, I already knew.

As always, it is frustrating when people don't listen to your advice -- particularly when one is practically infallible. Once thought I was incorrect, but afterwards realized I was mistaken.

So, slowly my wife is coming around. there are a lot of reasons not to do this - the least of which is proving liability. For that, one needs to obtain something clear in the psychologists records. This is most unlikely to exist, as almost all psychologists are trained now not to write anything down to avoid just this sort of thing.

Add to that fact another problem I see as paramount: if one subpoenas the records of a psychologist during the discovery phase of a malpractice lawuist, the defense has an equal right to discover and read out in open court the medical records of the plaintiffs -- records from their mental health professionals.

While it would be bad tactics because it would be bad form directly to use plaintiffs' medical records to impugn them, the intent of using the records and making them public in front of the jury and judge would inevitably be to cloud the issue and diminish sympathy for the plaintiffs.

I think of the nightmare of all this, over 2 to 3 years, and I see no upside, nothing to gain, a lot of pain and lot of money to lose.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
it sounds absurd to me and will never fly.I dont see a case for negligence.If someone is hell bent on killing themselves,they are going to succeed sooner or later.Usually,they dont discuss beforehand either.When they discuss it ,its usually a sign they are depressed ,upset and feel the need for attention,empathy,or sympathy.For lack of a better word i ...[text shortened]... probably stated he was fine and no longer suicidal and would be in.So whats the doctor to do?

you are jumping to conclusions absent facts. you should not assume facts not in evidence.

for example, you have no knowledge of what he told his doctor on the Friday.

You also have no way to discern how the psychologist knew he had a gun.

thus, your advice suffers from what a lot of top of the head, not carefully considered comment does -- you are missing a lot of what is the case in favor of believing what you prefer to think.

Not arguing with you, for given different facts, I'd come to similar conclusions.

But your take here goes beyond the facts you've been given.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
who would know except for a local attorney?

the leading local firm was consulted. remember, I'm a lawyer and I know a tort is not a dessert.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Couldn't the psychologist have been sued by the patient if she had called the police, for breaking Dr/Patient privacy? Sounds like she was between a rock and a hard place.

no, the patient would not have a cause of action in that case.

in fact, the psychologist has an affirmative professional obligation to call the cops if she believes the patient is a danger to himself and in imminent danger.

the picture gets complex because the law also recognizes the psychology profession's use of "contracts" with suicidal patients.

there are well established guidelines, etc. with respect to these agreements, which we would have to show were handled improperly and negligently.

but I agree with your skepticism and that of others who kindly have commented here that the burden of showing negligence here is not an easy one.

I'm not even in favor of seeking the doctor's records using my powers as administrator of the estate, which I have the legal right to do even before filing any complaint and thus giving the Dr a reciprocal right.

It would upset the Dr, to be sure, to get such a demand. So if I wanted to cause her pain, that would do it.

I'm opposed to doing that -- I see no proper purpose there for me.

Nothing will change what is the case -- it is what it is.

No amount of revenge, no amount of pain caused the Dr financially or otherwise can help me; in fact it would only prolong and exacerbate my grief.

I take the Buddhist view that I must accept what has happened, with regret, but without malice. Malice would hurt me worse than the Dr.

I'll take Hesse's advice at the end of Siddhartha: I realize that I could have offered my life for his ten times over, died ten deaths, and still not change the path he had chosen. I don't have to like it -- but I should accept it and find a way to live with it.

the legal system is essential to solve certain kinds of problems. I believe, but do not insist, that it should only be resorted to in personal injury cases when there is a legitimate matter concerning compensation -- never for inflicting harm or revenge for the pain and suffering in a case as close as this one.

Originally posted by Redrocket
I think you are wrong to seek compensation. She got him on medication and sort help from other specialists. Is she going to ring up the police every time an appointment is missed?? What would the police do anyway.. that would have saved his life?? They would either find him dead or be making a pointless call. Id tell your relatives to get f'ed and stop trying to blame other people.

thanks for your thoughts

see the other comments and that might help you better understand what's going on

Originally posted by FMF
Joined : 06 Jun '09. Moves : 0

Scriabin, I presume.

You arguing with yourself? Making dreams come true.

nope

I'm not interested in arguing at all

looking for validation of my thought process

so far, doing well

while I'm confident I got it right, one cannot be sure when so much emotion and people so close to one must be considered.

even my legal judgment needs second guessing -- the man who represents himself has a fool for a client

others, like you, FMF, who make unnecessary snide and hurtful remarks in a context such as this are merely revealed to be the kind of people they actually are.

thanks for so revealing yourself and for sharing it with us

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
The psychologist and psychiatrist did what they could keeping within the confines of dr/patient privilege, the family are being dicks sniffing around for some free money.

you mistake the motive - thought I made it clear -- it is emotional in nature, not pecuniary. They are deeply, severely angry. They feel betrayed. They want revenge, they want to hurt the Dr., to make her suffer as they are suffering.

no one involved needs or wants money

in fact, the bottom line here would put me in the red by several tens of thousands of dollars after the likely successful judgment was subject to tax, 40% contingency fee paid plus approx $80 K in expenses.

before you give advice in this sort of tone again, you might consider that telling a man his wife and daughter are "dicks" is a curious way to express yourself.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
It's sad that someone has taken his own life, but stop trying to blame others for it. He didn't feel like living anymore and shot himself. Respect that decision.

I don't blame anyone, except myself. I simply failed to appreciate over many years just how really sick he was; he suffered a great deal. We all did the best we could and this is just the way it turned out.

however, my wife and daughter feel otherwise.

I do respect his decision, and slowly my wife and daughter will come to do so as well.

In the meantime, I cope with having to play through this undesirable script and take the role assigned to me and support my wife and daughter. They will come around to where I am, I think.

I do this to help me keep my mind clear.

bottom line? yes, it is sad. not much more to it.

Originally posted by Black Star Uchess
it's a sad case, i don't think the award should be significant as it sounds like the psychologist did all they could whilst respecting the patients confidence. it sounds like it should be reviewed in terms of what were the best actions more then compensation , if the police were contacted could it have made a difference would they have even been able to respond, would they have just reffered it back to the people treating him already...

yes and no. yes, it is sad. yes, the award would not be significant, especially in a county where juries are made up of well educated, affluent people.

no, it isn't a question of compensation. There is nothing to pay back, no right to be settled.

It is only a question of pain and suffering -- a more or less punitive matter.

And well-educated, affluent people tend to look at a person's decision to end their life disinterestedly -- without undue emotion and with a disinclination to make financial awards for the emotional pain of others.

that's just the way medical malpractice works -- that is the case.

knowing that, I've realized from the first that taking this path is unhelpful.

My task has been to find a way for my wife and daughter to come to the same realization without the benefit I have of legal training.

It wasn't legal training, however, that put me in this frame of mind. It was Buddhist Vipassna Mindfulness training.

Even if I knew or believed the Dr was negligent, not merely incorrect, still I would have to choose between seeking justice and just moving on.

Seeking justice in this matter, I think, would make me and my surviving family members grieve for the rest of our lives -- it would cause more wounds and not heal us.

In my heart, I feel the Dr. loved my son. I think she has suffered, too. Regardless, nothing is to gained and much lost by seeking revenge on her.

Originally posted by joneschr
I'm wondering on whose behalf the suit would be filed, and their justification for thinking they are more innocent in this than the psychologist.

why do you wonder that?

Originally posted by Seitse
[b]RHP: the perfect place to find the answers to the difficult questions of life ©

DISCLAIMER. The service specifically excludes any liability unless the advisory searched for in the general forums concerns the fields of medicine, theology, law, construction, aerospace development, and sexuality, in which cases the liability shall be limited to a free baseball cap with the logo of Captain Crunch.[/b]

Cpt Crunch?

too much sugar, guy

I'm wearing a Boston Red Sox hat and a Youklis jersey so my Bosox can keep up and pass the damned Yanks.

the debate, as I anticipated, is over whether one should seek a sum of money, for whatever reason, against a Dr, even a negligent one, under these sorts of circumstances.

I'm explaining best I can where my head is -- and I appreciate what others are doing to help out.

you, too. you made me smile.