Originally posted by wittywonkaWith the fragments of dignity that we can? What the hell does THAT mean?
...The democrats simply want the Bush Admin. to accept the fact that we've done what we can do in Iraq and that we should pull out with the fragments of dignity that we can. .."
Do you share Majority Leader Harry Reid's (DEM-O-CRAT-NV) assessment that "the war is lost"?
Hillary has said that "If Bush doesn't extricate us from Iraq, when I am President, I will".
Oh, really? NOW she's saying that we're going to be there until AT LEAST 2013.... gee, at least until the end of what would be her first term... wonder what happened there.
Doesn't sound like she (or Obama or Edwards) has any intention of "pulling out with what fragments of dignity that we can".
Democrats talk about pulling us out of Iraq...show me one instance in which ANY of them spoke of "victory".... never happened.
Also, if "over 70% of the American people" wanted us out of there now, the Dems would have had the political will to de-fund the war.
And why would the Dems try to pass a resolution condemning Turkey (a big time ally of the U.S.) for a genocide which occurred 100 years ago? Does that sound like the Dems are in any way interested in winning?
Originally posted by TheBloopOnce again, I will repeat myself. War is never black and white. You can drop an atomic bomb on a country or fly a banner with big bold letters saying "Mission Accomplished," but war is not simply "won" or "lost."
With the fragments of dignity that we can? What the hell does THAT mean?
Do you share Majority Leader Harry Reid's (DEM-O-CRAT-NV) assessment that "the war is lost"?
Hillary has said that "If Bush doesn't extricate us from Iraq, when I am President, I will".
Oh, really? NOW she's saying that we're going to be there until AT LEAST 2013.... gee, ...[text shortened]... 0 years ago? Does that sound like the Dems are in any way interested in winning?
From the very beginning of this war, the U.S. knew, without a doubt, that after removing Saddam Iraq would go into civil war. Only an idiot would have believed that we would just sweep in, remove Saddam, and be on our dandy way. So now, we're stuck there waiting for what exactly? We need to stop sitting on our hands and get out of there. Again I ask, if we're willing to torture to "save soldiers' lives," why are we letting them sit there in Iraq?
Originally posted by wittywonkaWell, the US got Israel to turn over Gaza to the Palistinians. The US got the Palistinians to stop killing innocent Israeli students on their way to school. There's two.
When was the last time the U.S. government (specifically in the past seven years) did anything worthy of "saying something good about"?
Edit -- It might allow for a more relevant debate to narrow this oh-so-massive field of noteworthy actions by the U.S. government to foreign policies only.
G.
Originally posted by smw6869One simple question for the pro-war crowd: When do we pull out all of our troops from Iraq? The American people have a right to know.
Well, the US got Israel to turn over Gaza to the Palistinians. The US got the Palistinians to stop killing innocent Israeli students on their way to school. There's two.
G.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerSeriously, when was the last time an issue became that important that people stayed focussed enough to see through the whole process of actually making someone accountable. While i agree that politicians are elected officials carrying out the will of the people, they are also very cleverly representing the manipulated and massaged poll driven will/expectation of the people, such that its very easy for them to duck without even moving.
The people who are funding this f***ing war (i.e. the taxpayers)! All elected officials are accountable to the public for their actions.
Originally posted by hamltnblueThere's no question in my mind that this negativity amongst our nations leaders is encouraging Ahmadinejad to continue sending more and better explosives into Iraq and encouraging the terrorists to detonate them. They undoubtedly believe that they are winning the war right here in the US, regardless of the outcome in Iraq. This is causing the loss of both American/coalition and Iraqi lives. It may not rise to the level of being prosecuted as treason, but the effect is the same.
Announcing that a war is lost when it is quite the opposite is treason, especially when it's from a congressman. That's one, I can list others if you'd wish but you only asked for one.
Originally posted by leisurelyslothThen the solution is simple: pull out.
There's no question in my mind that this negativity amongst our nations leaders is encouraging Ahmadinejad to continue sending more and better explosives into Iraq and encouraging the terrorists to detonate them. They undoubtedly believe that they are winning the war right here in the US, regardless of the outcome in Iraq. This is causing the loss of both American/coalition and Iraqi lives.
But, of course, we could all just keep sending out propaganda lies, saying that everything in Iraq is fine and dandy.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerOne simple question for the anti-war crowd: When do we pull out all of our troops from Germany, Italy and Japan? The American people have a right to know.
One simple question for the pro-war crowd: When do we pull out all of our troops from Iraq? The American people have a right to know.
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Originally posted by leisurelyslothHow long did the U.S. stay involved in WWII?
One simple question for the anti-war crowd: When do we pull out all of our troops from Germany, Italy and Japan? The American people have a right to know.
Now, how long has the U.S. been involved in the Iraq War?
If we've "won" the war, we need to get out. If we've "lost" the war, we need to get out. If we're "still fighting it," what the hell are we "still fighting for"?
Originally posted by wittywonkaIt's not so simple, Witty. That's the dirty little secret here, and I suspect it's also a big part of why the Democrats are enjoying an even lower approval rating than Bush. They can talk all they want during the elections about how they're going to pull out of Iraq, but the simple fact is they can't and they know it. If they wanted to, they could cut off funding and end the war today but they haven't even though their fringe base is screaming for it.
Then the solution is simple: pull out.
But, of course, we could all just keep sending out propaganda lies, saying that everything in Iraq is fine and dandy.
The bottom line is that as much as they would like to see George W. lose this war, and as much as they're willing to talk-down/ignore our troops accomplishments and talk up our enemies successes, ultimately we can't really surrender in the war on terrorism. Sure we could wave a white flag like we did in Vietnam, but this enemy isn't going to respect it. They brought the war to us, and if we don't fight them offensively we will return to fighting it defensively at home. That's going to cost a lot more American lives and ultimately require us to go back on the offensive. And while they might not want to admit it, I think the Democrats ultimately realize the truth of this fact.
I suspect that explains in large part why Hilary is backing off her commitment to withdrawing troops--she's starting to face the fact that she might actually be elected president, in which case this becomes her war on terrorism, not W's. But in reality it's likely to be ongoing after she's served her 4 or 8 and someone else takes on the task, and so on....
Originally posted by leisurelyslothThis is where I genuinely don't understand.
...ultimately we can't really surrender in the war on terrorism. Sure we could wave a white flag like we did in Vietnam, but this enemy isn't going to respect it. They brought the war to us, and if we don't fight them offensively we will return to fighting it defensively at home. That's going to cost a lot more American lives and ultimately require us to go back on the offensive.
If terrorists wanted to attack us, why not attack us right here and now? I can't imagine a better provocation to attack than having an occupation in their very own country. If they really wanted to attack us again, why haven't they already done so? I have no reason to believe they simply want us out of their country and want to be done with us.