George W was asked a simple question

Originally posted by wittywonka
How long did the U.S. stay involved in WWII?

Now, how long has the U.S. been involved in the Iraq War?

If we've "won" the war, we need to get out. If we've "lost" the war, we need to get out. If we're "still fighting it," what the hell are we "still fighting for"?

Not that GWB needs another apologist, but the one thing that did strike me as true is that the US has been playing that region of the world for the past 30 years. If stability were ever to be achieved in that region, then it would take a good proportion of the time that they have been actively going about corrupting the processes that should have ensured the region had a brains trust that would be able to take over, with the educated support of the people.

That however does not exist and pulling out will not allow it to develop spontaneoulsy like life evolving out of a primordial ooze. If ever there was a more compelling argument for the origins of humankind being a created species, then the thought that out of a chaotic maelstrom of internecine warfare a democratic system can emerge that will establish itself and function with authority and with the confidence of its people without the guiding hand of a superpower that can patiently shepherd the process with a determined resilience to achieve the goal, is one of those thoughts that allow for gold to be made of straw or one of those thoughts that compel people to raise pit bulls and train them to win in dog pits, and are genuinely shocked when one these dogs happen to savage some pure innocent child(usually their own) with the lame excuse that they've always known the breed to be very good with kids.

Originally posted by wittywonka
How long did the U.S. stay involved in WWII?

Now, how long has the U.S. been involved in the Iraq War?

If we've "won" the war, we need to get out. If we've "lost" the war, we need to get out. If we're "still fighting it," what the hell are we "still fighting for"?

Uhhmm. We're still in all three of those coutries. I guess you could argue that the US has been "involved" in WWII for ~66 years and is still involved.

WWII proper lasted 6 years. The US only fought in the last 4.

The Iraq War II lasted a few weeks.

The Marshal Plan for European re-construction lasted until 1951. That would be about 6 years after the end of WWII.

I think if you take a look at the history of post WWI you'll find that we tried the stategy of winning and then running back home. It didn't work so well and was a major contributor to the rise of Hitler and WWII. That was a major reason why we tried a different (and dramatically more successful) strategy after WWII.

Originally posted by wittywonka
This is where I genuinely don't understand.

If terrorists wanted to attack us, why not attack us right here and now? I can't imagine a better provocation to attack than having an occupation in their very own country. If they really wanted to attack us again, why haven't they already done so? I have no reason to believe they simply want us out of their country and want to be done with us.

I think that you'll find that most of the terrorists in Iraq are not actually Iraqis.

From a strategic standpoint it makes a lot of sense for them to fight us there instead of here. If they attack the US directly it will tend to unite us. If they keep the fight in Iraq, they can continue to divide us as well as maintain the illusion that they are fighting for the freedom of "their" country. I don't know if they are thinking really long term (I'm actually kind of skeptical of this), but if they are, then they must also realize that freedom and prosperity in a Western style democracy in Iraq would not be a good advertisement for the lifestyle they are advocating.

As far as the Iraqis wanting us out of their country, I'm sure they do. But it's a double edged sword for them. They've got vultures circling on every border. They've got foreign terrorists coming across the border. And they've got all sorts of internal strife as well. If we cut and run there's going to be a bloodbath and they know it. Until they are strong enough to prevent this, they can't very well show us the door. When they are I suspect they will do so....

Originally posted by leisurelysloth
We're still in all three of those coutries. I guess you could argue that the US has been "involved" in WWII for ~66 years and is still involved....The Iraq War II lasted a few weeks....

I'm well aware of that. My point was that the U.S. only fought a war in those countries for around four years, in comparison to the Iraq War, which continues today. If you don't actually believe that we are still involved in war with Iraq, then you've completely lost me.

Originally posted by wittywonka
I'm well aware of that. My point was that the U.S. only fought a war in those countries for around four years, in comparison to the Iraq War, which continues today. If you don't actually believe that we are still involved in war with Iraq, then you've completely lost me.

Although my views tend to be quite "America-centric" I don't think that even I would argue that WWII only included the time period in which the US fought.

I do NOT believe that we are currently involved in a war with Iraq, although we are certainly faced with frequent acts of war in Iraq. A more accurate statement would be that we are currently fighting with Iran in Iraq, but out politicians don't have the stomach to come out and say it.

If you study the history, I think you'll find that fighting continued in Germany WELL after the "end" of WWII, and didn't stop until we went door-to-door and kicked some serious booty. I don't think you can draw an exact parallel here though, since Germany didn't have a neighbor pouring in weapons, explosives, and reinforcements to the remaining Nazis who continued to fight against the Allies.

Originally posted by leisurelysloth
I think that you'll find that most of the terrorists in Iraq are not actually Iraqis.

This would certainly appear to be the case - based on Osama’s recent video.

He apologized to the tribal leaders for his insurgents “mistakes” (indiscriminant killing of Iraqis&rsquo😉 which has turned the tribal leaders against them and led to their cooperation with USA troops.

This cooperation has led to the success of the “surge” (insurgent violence decrease of 70% since surge start-per Swiss news report) and apparently is causing Osama severe problems, based on his need to issue an appeal to Iraqi tribal leaders.