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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 08 Aug '09 07:15
    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get
    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
    Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!
    PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
    Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!
    Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer
    PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
    Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
    PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange
    PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!
    PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens
    Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan
    PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed
    -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
    pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monop
    pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.
    Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE
    Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.
    Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll
    pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll
    Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc
    Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)
    Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs
    PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that
    Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected
    Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you’ll all be paid the same
    PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr’s time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.
    PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries
    PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
    PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
    Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.
    Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.
    Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
    Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand
    pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!
    Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing
    Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan
    Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!
    Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?
    PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life
    Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!
    PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death
    PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends
    Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “adv. care planning consult” will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates
    PG 429 Lines 10-12 “adv. care consultation” may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV
    Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
    PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life
    Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?
    Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?
    PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage
    Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html
  2. 08 Aug '09 07:43
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get
    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
    Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no ...[text shortened]... tioning those svcs

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html
    Um, how about a link to the bill itself instead of one to what some blog says some guy named Peter twittered that he read.
  3. 08 Aug '09 08:07
    I don't have time to go through every single one of them. But let's just take one example.

    So claimed Sec 152 provides coverage for all non-us Citizens.

    Here's the text to the actual bill.


    http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

    SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
    5Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States

    OOOPS! So what's 152?

    SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
    1(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

    (b) Implementation- To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

    _______________________________

    So how does someone interpret that to mean illegals get covered? How did they miss in all caps "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS."
    The answer is: they don't. It's a deliberate lie and once *again* you got fooled by the right wing blogs. Uther, it doesn't piss you off that these bloggers deliberately decieve you? It doesn't embarrass you that you swallow it every single time?
  4. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    08 Aug '09 08:22 / 1 edit
    From Sarah Palin's Facebook page:
    "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society', whether they are worthy of health care."

    The question is, are these claims by Palin true or false?

    She has called the Obama health plan "downright evil". Is it, though? By what definition of "evil"?

    Found here: http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5787813/obama-health-care-plan-is-evil-palin/

    Another snippet: "The claim that the Democratic health care bills would encourage euthanasia has been circulating on the internet for weeks and has been echoed by some Republican leaders. The nonpartisan group FactCheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Centre at the University of Pennsylvania says the claim is false."
  5. 08 Aug '09 08:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    From Sarah Palin's Facebook page:
    "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society', whether they are worthy of health care."

    The question is, are g Public Policy Centre at the University of Pennsylvania says the claim is false."
    It just blows my mind the extent that these people can saying anything... ANYTHING and never get called out on it.

    Our reporters are far too inept. If I was a reporter I would thoroughly read the bill and highlight key points for quick reference.

    Polician A: "My son would have to go before a panel blah blah blah"

    Reporter: "OK, I have the bill right here in front of me. Which section are you citing? And section XYZ says something that totally contradicts what you say."

    I mean, just outright LIES go unchallenged.
  6. 08 Aug '09 08:36
    There is a government panel which determines the minimum care insurers have to supply to me. Does this reduce my "freedom of choice"? Not really. This basic insurance (which is mandatory for all citizens) covers mostly serious illnesses and life-threatening conditions which everyone wants to be covered against anyways. And if you want additional coverage, such as dental care, you can get additional insurance.
  7. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    08 Aug '09 08:53
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    It just blows my mind the extent that these people can saying anything... ANYTHING and never get called out on it. [...] I mean, just outright LIES go unchallenged.
    And you only have to see what effect it has on Obama's opponents when he and the WH talks about challenging the lies! Suddenly the U.S. is in peril... tyranny... Big Brother... American NWO troops firing on fellow citizens... Obama is a new Hitler... the U.S. is going to become like the U.S.S.R... with the K.G.B. ... there are domestic enemies ... people who disagree are imposters, not real Americans...

    Is this just politics? Or is some kind of syndrome?
  8. 08 Aug '09 09:55
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
    Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand
    pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!
    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html
    Let's try another one.

    First: The limitations supposedly in place (prohibition on ownership/expansion) are only for a certain type of hospital (While your source acts like it is for all hospitals), that gets exemptions from other regulations. The reasoning here clearly is that these kinds of hospital shouldn't be able to suddenly expand and use these legal advantages to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

    Now let's get back to the points in detail
    1) Completely, utterly, 100% wrong. The text : The percentage of the total value of the ownership or investment interests held in the hospital, or in an entity whose assets include the hospital, by physician owners or investors in the aggregate does not exceed such percentage as of the date of enactment of this subsection.

    So there is a prohibition of increasing the percentage owned, but that is not a prohibition of ownership.

    2) Prohibition on expansion : Well, actually your own source immediately goes on to say there are exceptions, so why the word prohibition here ? Note, again, that this is only for a specific type of hospitals that enjoys other legal advantages.

    3) Any point except slipping in ACORN somewhere ?
  9. 08 Aug '09 13:13
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Um, how about a link to the bill itself instead of one to what some blog says some guy named Peter twittered that he read.
    If you follow the link I posted at the bottom you can get to the actual bill I believe
  10. 08 Aug '09 13:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    I don't have time to go through every single one of them. But let's just take one example.

    So claimed Sec 152 provides coverage for all non-us Citizens.

    Here's the text to the actual bill.


    http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

    SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
    5Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Fed iberately decieve you? It doesn't embarrass you that you swallow it every single time?
    No Federal Payment For Undocumented Aliens? Could it be that they plan to document all the aliens? Get them in the system maybe? Just spitballing here.
  11. 08 Aug '09 13:19
    "The answer is: they don't. It's a deliberate lie and once *again* you got fooled by the right wing blogs. Uther, it doesn't piss you off that these bloggers deliberately decieve you? It doesn't embarrass you that you swallow it every single time?"-USArmyParrotpooper

    I posted that w/no other comment then went to bed.To encourage debate.I never made a judgement call one way or the other.Did I say I swallow this ? Did I say I do not? So as far as anybody being embarrassed its not me.
  12. 08 Aug '09 13:22
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    "The answer is: they don't. It's a deliberate lie and once *again* you got fooled by the right wing blogs. Uther, it doesn't piss you off that these bloggers deliberately decieve you? It doesn't embarrass you that you swallow it every single time?"-USArmyParrotpooper

    I posted that w/no other comment then went to bed.To encourage debate.I never made ...[text shortened]... ay I swallow this ? Did I say I do not? So as far as anybody being embarrassed its not me.
    There has been a push to give the illegal aliens legal status. This could be written with that in mind.
  13. 08 Aug '09 13:46
    Originally posted by FMF
    From Sarah Palin's Facebook page:
    "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society', whether they are worthy of health care."

    The question is, are ...[text shortened]... g Public Policy Centre at the University of Pennsylvania says the claim is false."
    Well FMF you lied once again. You said you didn't care about the US health care system but yet you "chime in" once again. Could it be that you really don't care about it but you sit and prey on certain individuals kinda like Scriabin said? Or just another lie?
  14. 08 Aug '09 14:23
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    I don't have time to go through every single one of them. But let's just take one example.

    So claimed Sec 152 provides coverage for all non-us Citizens.

    Here's the text to the actual bill.


    http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

    SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
    5Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Fed ...[text shortened]... iberately decieve you? It doesn't embarrass you that you swallow it every single time?
    sounds fair to me.

    I don't see why utherpendragon is complaining.
  15. 08 Aug '09 14:26
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    There has been a push to give the illegal aliens legal status. This could be written with that in mind.
    This could be written with that in mind.

    "could be"

    well that sums it all up, "it could be", but it doesn't mean it is.

    it just unverified, another baseless claim.