joe wilson to obama: "you lie!"

Originally posted by zeeblebot
haven't been following this much, but hasn't Obama been saying the same thing about the town hallers?

shockingly disrespectful

Originally posted by Sleepyguy
Originally posted by telerion
[b]In one sense, Obama was not lying.

But that's not the sense that matters. In another sense, Obama is brazenly lying through his teeth, and Joe Wilson was exactly right.

This is essentially the same loophole through which illegal aliens are able to keep finding work in the US. They simply claim they are el ...[text shortened]... ading.

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=137859[/b]

Joe Wilson, is that you? You need to get more sleep before you make another scene before the Congress.

Originally posted by duecer
shockingly disrespectful

yeah! .... i think he (obama) said "lies and deceit" ....

now according to sleepyguy and telerion and joe wilson, it's obama dishing out the deceit ...

P.S., the CNN guy today found the two killed amendments, but said there was another part of the bill that said you'd have to have citizenship ...

but missed the enforcement and verification part, probly on purpose ....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_co/us_illegal_immigrants_fact_check

...

However, Wilson is far from alone in thinking that the prohibition in the House bill doesn't go far enough. For him and other Republicans, the problem is not what's in the bill, it's what the bill leaves out. There's no provision for how the prohibition would be enforced, or any requirement for people to prove they are citizens or legal residents before getting health care benefits. In fact, Democrats on the Energy and Commerce and Ways and Means committees defeated Republican-offered amendments that would have required people to verify their legal status before getting care, with some Democrats saying such requirements would be unnecessarily burdensome for people legally entitled to coverage. Wilson cited the defeat of those two amendments Thursday when he discussed his outburst with reporters.

"I will tell you this, that it was spontaneous. It was when he stated, as he did, about not covering illegal aliens, when I knew we'd had those two amendments," Wilson said.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
P.S., the CNN guy today found the two killed amendments, but said there was another part of the bill that said you'd have to have citizenship ...

but missed the enforcement and verification part, probly on purpose ....

"on purpose" a lot more likely if the defeated amendments were about enforcement ... the CNN guy didn't mention that bit ...

Originally posted by telerion
I understand perfectly well what you call the "sense that matters," however, the sense in which it matters is a judgement call. Are we talking statutory? If so, the Obama is telling the truth, and Joe is lying. The bill does say that buying into the coop requires citizenship. Are we talking effective? If so, then Obama is under any reasonable estimation of likelihood lying, and Joe is telling the truth.

Those are semantics. The "sense that matters" is whether the president intended to deceive. I think it is clear that he did. He needs the general public to believe that illegal aliens will, in fact, NOT get health care insurance on the back of the US taxpayer. But at the same time he needs to allow it to happen to appease groups like La Raza and the National Hispanic Medical Association.

The Democrats have good reason to believe that without checking status the word of the legislation will not be enforced. Moreover they seem to want it just that way.

Yep. It is the same impulse that led them to kill E-Verify.

Lest you think I still don't get your point, let me assure you that I just finished defending your position against my wife (a bigger Obama fan than I, and a supporter of certain concessions to illegal immigrants).

I'm honored, but don't get in trouble on my account! 🙂

I guess in the end, you can choose to call Obama a liar if you wish. My understanding of the matter however is that there is enough grey area in the words "would insure illegal immigrants" for a two politicians to say opposite things and both not lie.

Again, I'm not interested in whether Obama is technically correct based on semantics. The question I'm focusing on is "Is my president trying to deceive me?" The answer is yes, and I think it was only one of many lies he told in that speech.

By the way, did I clear things up on the intragovernment debt vs. debt to the public thing?

Well, yes and no. But the holiday weekend intervened and I'm not ready to tackle that discussion again without re-reading some of that thread. I'm only left with vague notions of accounting magic and time-traveling money. I'll take a look at it later on and post something in that thread if you still want to discuss it.

BTW, CBS News has a piece on this topic today titled, Does Joe Wilson Have A Case On Health Care, Illegal Aliens? I'll just give you the final paragraph..

This brings us back to Obama's speech last night. It's true that the Democrats haven't explicitly called for illegal immigrants to be covered by H.R. 3200, but by voting down two amendments that would have verified participants' legal status, they seem to have implicitly allowed it. It's no crime in Washington to say one thing and do another, especially when you're under pressure from influential special interest groups, but it should still be a bit embarrassing for politicians discovered to be doing it.

So while Joe Wilson may not have chosen the best way to express it, he did have a point. As the president might have said, the Republican politico's outburst has turned into one of those teachable moments.

Here's the link...

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/10/taking_liberties/entry5301652.shtml

Originally posted by zeeblebot
yeah! .... i think he (obama) said "lies and deceit" ....

now according to sleepyguy and telerion and joe wilson, it's obama dishing out the deceit ...

And whodey!!

So the question begs, if he was not telling a lie, then what is his proposal for illegals that need medical attention? In fact, we are paying for them now so how will this all change? The fact of the matter is, he could care less how much it costs just so long as the government is in control and that requires his legislation being passed at any and all cost. That is the issue at hand.

Originally posted by whodey
And whodey!!

So the question begs, if he was not telling a lie, then what is his proposal for illegals that need medical attention? In fact, we are paying for them now so how will this all change? The fact of the matter is, he could care less how much it costs just so long as the government is in control and that requires his legislation being passed at any and all cost. That is the issue at hand.

He is not lying about the illegal immigrants part, it would be unconstitutional to pass such a requirment. As for the illegal's, it will remain status quo.

Originally posted by duecer
He is not lying about the illegal immigrants part, it would be unconstitutional to pass such a requirment. As for the illegal's, it will remain status quo.

My only point here is that illegals will continue to get treated free of charge. If not, what are they going to do, turn them away? Obama knows this and simply does not care. In fact, he wants us to believe otherwise.

As we all know, emergency rooms are supposed to save life-threatening conditions first and verify answers to questions later. I grant that under a plan that makes people want to start seeing preventative care treaters, you do save money.

At this point, even though undocumented immigrants enlarge and contribute to the economy through their participation, they don't use much health care in part for fear of deportation and in part for their younger average age than the majority of the population. It's a tiny fraction of all costs. It's ridiculous to harp on it so much so as to ignore the other issues.

This is being pushed more by the anti-immigrant faction than anyone else. It is a stupid battle and Joe Wilson got what was coming to him.

The new plan saves the most money from the more expensive and older citizens some of whom don't want to see doctors or pay for them, etc until there is an emergency that develops. Why is nobody talking about that? To harp on the small-money technicalities of how it MIGHT end up working? WHY do people love to harp on the SMALL MONEY??? (Race?)

Originally posted by eljefejesus
[
At this point, even though undocumented immigrants enlarge and contribute to the economy through their participation, they don't use much health care in part for fear of deportation and in part for their younger average age than the majority of the population. It's a tiny fraction of all costs. It's ridiculous to harp on it so much so as to ignore the other issues.

No its not. So why is it an issue at all? After all, should the poor, regardless of natiionailty, be ENTITLED to free medical coverage? That is really the heart of the issue and Obama seems to be saying yes they should have access.....unless they are not American. In fact, why not just provide true universal coverage to the entire world? Of course, if that happened, the "poor" in the US would be the ones paying for the much poorer people in the third world. LOL.

So how about it liberals? Are you willing to pay for ALL the poor? Is it not the "moral" thing to do? If not, why are we bothering with paying for the "poor" in the US? If so, why is Obama turning a deaf ear, or at least proporting to turn a deaf ear, the poor illegals?

Really, I think this will be the next great entitlement push, which is, world wide entitlements. Of course, first we must shove all the national entitlements through first before taking the next step. For now, we will continue taking baby steps to the coming one world order.

Here's another tidbit on this topic in an article from Time today. It seems Joltin Joe Wilson struck a chord with Senators Baucus & Conrad, who are now signaling they want a specific provision to verify legal status in the bill. It seems Joe wasn't so stupid after all. Bwahaha! Serves you right for lying Mr. President.

The controversy over Republican Rep. Joe Wilson's shouting out "You Lie!" at the President over his claim that illegal immigrants wouldn't benefit from health-care reform apparently sparked some reconsideration of the relevant language. "We really thought we'd resolved this question of people who are here illegally, but as we reflected on the President's speech last night we wanted to go back and drill down again," said Senator Kent Conrad, one of the Democrats in the talks after a meeting Thursday morning. Baucus later that afternoon said the group would put in a proof of citizenship requirement to participate in the new health exchange — a move likely to inflame the left.

Link here...

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921713,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Undocumented immigrants do not come here for medical care, Mexico already offers broad care and is working on universal coverage themselves. I don't agree with that move, but that's what they're doing. The US is doing the same thing, again although I don't agree with it, that is what they are doing.

It is ridiculous to ignore that undocumented immigrants use health care less for fear of being apprehended and that this would continue under universal care. If they wanted healthcare without fear of losing a US job, they would go to their home countries where it's more available with less risks. What they want is to contribute to the economy. Why focus on fake possibilities and ridiculous extremes?

The current plan does not pick on undocumented immigrants, but it also does not do anything to change their attitudes towards avoiding government programs that may involve deportation risk. It does not make them older. They remain young and participate at lower rates than the general population. That's just the way it is.

Why lie like Joe Wilson and make it out to be a major issue?

Joe Wilson is a big fat racist-baiting vote-whor*.