Originally posted by SleepyguyWAIT, WAIT, politicians are pandering for votes by jumping on an emotional issue? Should we stop the presses now, or stop them later?
Here's another tidbit on this topic in an article from Time today. It seems Joltin Joe Wilson struck a chord with Senators Baucus & Conrad, who are now signaling they want a specific provision to verify legal status in the bill. It seems Joe wasn't so stupid after all. Bwahaha! Serves you right for lying Mr. President.
[i]The controversy over Republi ...[text shortened]...
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921713,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
Originally posted by SleepyguySo what are they proposing on doing with the illegals? Turn them away?
Here's another tidbit on this topic in an article from Time today. It seems Joltin Joe Wilson struck a chord with Senators Baucus & Conrad, who are now signaling they want a specific provision to verify legal status in the bill. It seems Joe wasn't so stupid after all. Bwahaha! Serves you right for lying Mr. President.
[i]The controversy over Republi ...[text shortened]...
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921713,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
Originally posted by whodeyI don't know. But it will be interesting to watch the left react to this if Baucus and Conrad really do put the requirement for proof of legal status in the bill. After all, the left seemed to have no problem with Obama declaring no illegal aliens would get coverage in his speech, but according to Time the left will now be "inflamed" if specific language is added to make his claim true. Why would that be if the left didn't know he was lying all along?
So what are they proposing on doing with the illegals? Turn them away?
I'm glad Joe Wilson was roundly rejected by his own party.
It's not good for the country or for Hispanics for the Republicans to become so marginalized in society and from Hispanics for extremism and stupidity.
Joe Wilson is both extreme and stupid... and extremely stupid.
I mean, come on, "you lie?"
Did he decide against the more diplomatic "liar, liar, pants on fire?"
Not that it's not appealing to Obama's biggest detractors, he certainly deserves criticism, but that this level of uncivil behavior is shameful.
It's also an emotional play to pander for votes.
What happened to the actual problems with nationalized healthcare, like debt?
Now Joe Wilson wants to bash undocumented immigrants?
Yeah, that will hurt Obama. What percentage of voters will be Hispanic by the next election, by the way?
Any chance for the Republicans to keep Arizona?
Nevada and New Mexico will likely be more solidly Democratic this year.
Where will texas be in 25 years?
It's what some racists want, bash undocumented immigrants as a disproportionate source... no an exclusive source of all evel at any and all long-term political costs.
Originally posted by SleepyguyYou presuppose far too much about "the left.". If this incident leads to the implementation of verification and it is not counterproductive (as in it doesn't discourage so many legal applicants who have difficulty finding all the right documentation that their fines outweigh any any aliens enrolling illegaly), then this is a great development. And it moves us closer to a resolution.
I don't know. But it will be interesting to watch the left react to this if Baucus and Conrad really do put the requirement for proof of legal status in the bill. After all, the left seemed to have no problem with Obama declaring no illegal aliens would get coverage in his speech, but according to Time the left will now be "inflamed" if specific language ...[text shortened]... d to make his claim true. Why would that be if the left didn't know he was lying all along?
Originally posted by SleepyguyWait. Are you upset about illegal aliens purchasing healthcare or with them purchasing [I]subsidized[/I] healthcare?
I don't know. But it will be interesting to watch the left react to this if Baucus and Conrad really do put the requirement for proof of legal status in the bill. After all, the left seemed to have no problem with Obama declaring no illegal aliens would get coverage in his speech, but according to Time the left will now be "inflamed" if specific language ...[text shortened]... d to make his claim true. Why would that be if the left didn't know he was lying all along?
Originally posted by eljefejesusWith the exception of that last line, I generally agree with what you've written. The illegal immigrant issue is small potatoes compared to the overall cost of healthcare in the system. It's hardly an issue that should sink the bill. Unfortunately, in this political climate, with hysteria over illegal immigrants keeping the far right up at night with their shotguns loaded, it just may do so.
Undocumented immigrants do not come here for medical care, Mexico already offers broad care and is working on universal coverage themselves. I don't agree with that move, but that's what they're doing. The US is doing the same thing, again although I don't agree with it, that is what they are doing.
It is ridiculous to ignore that undocumented immig ...[text shortened]... and make it out to be a major issue?
Joe Wilson is a big fat racist-baiting vote-whor*.
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Originally posted by telerionMost people realize it is not illegal immigrants fault. They wouldn't be here away from family unless something is terribly wrong with their own governments. About five years ago I went down to Houston on business, and from what was being put out on some of the radio stations, people are getting pretty fed up with the situation there. The only talk of violence came from a University professor who had stated something like the white race is old and dying, and talked of basically a race war. He kept his job though. There is no denying anyone health services because it looks bad. That is why it will include them. The only way it wouldn't include them is if the illegal immigrant problem was dealt with. That wont happen either. Making them legal takes away the advantage of cheap labor. They are being exploited here but it is still better than their home. The medical profession has been taken over to the point treating people is secondary to making money. Treatment options bear this out. If one has insurance or is a native american with public health service, tests and re tests are performed to jack the bill up. When a person has alzheimers and cant recognize family anymore, they will press on with cancer treatments. Over charges and waste is another problem. Joe wilson knows Obama and this whole healthcare reform is a lie.
With the exception of that last line, I generally agree with what you've written. The illegal immigrant issue is small potatoes compared to the overall cost of healthcare in the system. It's hardly an issue that should sink the bill. Unfortunately, in this political climate, with hysteria over illegal immigrants keeping the far right up at night with their shotguns loaded, it just may do so.
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Originally posted by eljefejesusAs usual you play the racism card because you have no coherent argument to make. While Joe Wislon's behavior on the surface appears unseemly we firts must examine whether he merely used a fallacious emotioa=nal outburst or if he was onto to something. To wit:
I'm glad Joe Wilson was roundly rejected by his own party.
It's not good for the country or for Hispanics for the Republicans to become so marginalized in society and from Hispanics for extremism and stupidity.
Joe Wilson is both extreme and stupid... and extremely stupid.
I mean, come on, "you lie?"
Did he decide against the more diplomatic "l source... no an exclusive source of all evel at any and all long-term political costs.
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) was right. The President was being dishonest when he said the House health care bill does not providing benefits to illegal immigrants. It does.
According to the Congressional Research Service, HR 3200 "does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating." The system would essentially operate on an honor system by illegal immigrants.
HR 3200 provides State Medicaid agencies with the ability to set eligibility standards for the low income subsidies. Since States are given a 100% federal match, there is nothing to discourage them from setting loose standards that allow illegal immigrants to be enrolled in the program.
With the help of the National Council of La Raza, House Democrats defeated two amendments offered to HR 3200 that would have added explicit taxpayer protections to stop benefits from going to illegal immigrants.
Senate Democrats promised Friday to include NEW citizenship verification requirements in their health care bill, proving that Joe Wilson was right about giant loophole in the House bill.
Therefore, Joe Wilson's is a lonely voice in the wilderness of Obama transparency. Thus far the only transparency is how easily one can tell his (Obama's) dishonesty.
Originally posted by PinkFloydAccording to wiki, he got some support but so did his opponent:
I've just had a Nostradamus-inspired vision: I predict Joe Wilson's constituents will re-elect him every time he runs for the rest of his life.
"Wilson quickly recorded a YouTube video to defend the substance of his opposition to Obama's health care plan and request donations for his re-election campaign.[38] Wilson said he received an outpouring of support following his outburst from his constituents.[39] According to a campaign aide, Wilson received more than $200,000 from contributors within 48 hours of the outburst.[40] Within 36 hours of the incident, Rob Miller, Wilson's anticipated opponent in the 2010 Congressional elections, had received over $700,000 in campaign contributions,[41] more than the $614,487 Miller raised in the entire 2008 campaign cycle.[42]"
He's playing to the same crowd as his bio/resume, memeber of sons of confederates, on the losing side of 7 to 36 state senators who wanted to keep a confederate flag over the state house, aid to Strom Thurman who ran for president on a segregationist policy stance. Question is, has carolina changed?
Originally posted by telerionRight, small potatos, but not to a core group of extremists. I wonder how far the anti-immigrant push has reached into the political mainstream even after the 2008 elections. I worry it may not have peaked and people are not speaking out against the racist elements to it enough.
With the exception of that last line, I generally agree with what you've written. The illegal immigrant issue is small potatoes compared to the overall cost of healthcare in the system. It's hardly an issue that should sink the bill. Unfortunately, in this political climate, with hysteria over illegal immigrants keeping the far right up at night with their shotguns loaded, it just may do so.
Originally posted by telerionYour surrender is unwarranted. Wilson was wrong (besides being an jerk). The House bill Sec. 246 titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS," states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." That's pretty clear.
I've been looking into this at it seems that there may be truth to this claim. It is very suspicious that the Democrats shot this down when the amendment is clearly nothing more than an attempt to verify status. In one sense, Obama was not lying. The bill does say that the credits are restricted to legal citizens; however, without verification illegal al ...[text shortened]... ying to fix this with his amendment.
So I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing this out.
The Heller amendment was unnecessary. Implementing regulations by the appropriate agencies should be the source for the measures needed to enforce the provision. Those agencies should decide whether SAVE and/or IVES are tailored so that they can be efficiently used or whether simpler measures which don't require the use of a vast database containing large amounts of personal information (I thought right wingers didn't like these) are more desirable.
Originally posted by joe beyserRadicalism on the left and the right are both bad. It is the movement towards the mainstream that the anti-immigrant crowd is pushing that makes these virulent minorities throughout the country to dangerous. Most of the anti-immigrant sentiment remains away from California and Texas and more concentrated in places like South Carolina where there is not a long history or roots established by Hispanics in the area and unfamiliarity between races has not been a good source of peaceful relations.
Most people realize it is not illegal immigrants fault. They wouldn't be here away from family unless something is terribly wrong with their own governments. About five years ago I went down to Houston on business, and from what was being put out on some of the radio stations, people are getting pretty fed up with the situation there. The only talk of vio ...[text shortened]... nd waste is another problem. Joe wilson knows Obama and this whole healthcare reform is a lie.
Originally posted by scacchipazzoYou call Mexicans people who have babies at 16 and make other racist generalizations and you are complaining about "the race card?" If you say something racist, it's not the race card being used against you. It's pointing out racist, hateful attitudes you should not be propagating without a response.
As usual you play the racism card because you have no coherent argument to make. While Joe Wislon's behavior on the surface appears unseemly we firts must examine whether he merely used a fallacious emotioa=nal outburst or if he was onto to something. To wit:
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) was right. The President was being dishonest when he said the House h ...[text shortened]... arency. Thus far the only transparency is how easily one can tell his (Obama's) dishonesty.
It is you who are pushing emotional and fallacious outbursts,and worst, racist ones.
Cite your source. I am not surprised that you left out the source because it made the typical anti-immigrant nativist reference to the non-profit rights organization "The National Counsel of La Raza" which nativist groups love to reference as "the other." You can attack organizations like the ADL and the NAACP and the NCLR all you want, but it is obvious what your problem with civil rights organizations are, and they are that they defend from your attacks.