In the Patton thread, Chancre states:
"...only Rommel, The Desert Fox, of the Afrika Corps, came close to his genius as a general...
I've decided to start a new subject debating this statement, instead of polluting the other thread:
See. This is just plain wrong.
I take it your talking about WWII generals, because you omit Napoleon, Wellington, Julius Ceasar and God knows how many other great generals there have been.
But, let's get one thing straight: Patton wasn't a flee on Rommel's arse when it came to generalling (if that's the way you spell it)!
Rommel not only master-minded the invasion of France, he also told Hitler how to defend the coast against an Allied invasion (Hitler didn't listen to him though and eventually, after a slight mishap of an assissination attempt, Rommel decided it was best for all involved to top himself).
The Africa offensive, or defensive as I suppose the Germans would have gazed upon it, was, militarily, a stunning victory for the Germans.
Yes, they lost. But so did the English at Dunkirk...
But from a military view point, the German retreat was one of the greatest feats ever done during a military campaign.
Not only was Rommel massively out-numbered (tanks were, if my memory serves me correctly, 10 to 1 in the Allies favour and soldiers were only slightly less. Rommel had no air support, compared to the Allies who had massive air-support. And Rommel's crack troops were only 1/3 of the force at his disposal, the rest being Italians).
He retreated as slowly as possible, holding the Allied force up for as long as possible and his loss of troops was extremely low.
That compared to his supply lines which were basically non-existant, Hitler who wasn't willing to send reinforcements (due to being pre-occupied by the Russians in the East) and, as I've stated, the air support the Allies had.
I'd go one step further and suggest that the reasons the Allies won in the desert had nothing to do with strategy at all. But with Germany's inability to give Rommel that which he needed.
The Allies won in Africa because they had more troops, more tanks and air support. Nothing to do with strategical genius at all.
And besides Africa...whatever else was Patton involved in...
Actually, the invasion of France was "masterminded" by a low ranking German officer who modified the old Von Schlieffen plan. Can't remember his name, I think he was a major at the time. Rommel was a field commander, certainly had nuthin' to do with developing the overall plan to overrun France.
You're correct about Rommel's being outnumbered in tanks......but the sad light armor and puny little gun of the American Sherman tank made this no big deal. It was common for a German Tiger to engage a dozen Shermans and knock them all out, the Germans had a vastly superior tank, and the Sherman sucked. One German tank commander after the war said going up against 10 Shermans was no big deal, but when they started seeing 20 and 30 to one odds, they knew they were in trouble.
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Originally posted by General PutzerHeinz Guderian is your man. He was the mastermind behind the blitzkrieg tactics. He wrote a book called Achtung Panzer and led the attack through the Ardennes forest in 1940 that cut off the allied forces. A truly brilliant military mind and would be on my top ten list of generals worldwide. He was a full general by 1940.
Actually, the invasion of France was "masterminded" by a low ranking German officer who modified the old Von Schlieffen plan. Can't remember his name, I think he was a major at the time. Rommel was a field commander, certainly had nuthin' to do with developing the overall plan to overrun France.
Originally posted by UllrGuderian.....yeaaaahhhhhhh, could be. It's been years since I read everything I could find about WW2, but I thought there was an obscure major or lieutenent colonel in war plans that had studied the old Von Schlieffen plan and dusted it off, making changes for the advancements in tanks/air power/mechanized infantry, etc., and after he got "discovered" , was allowed free reign to plan for the battle against France. He later became a big shot general.....maybe it was Guderian and I'm confused as to his rank.
Heinz Guderian is your man. He was the mastermind behind the blitzkrieg tactics. He wrote a book called Achtung Panzer and led the attack through the Ardennes forest in 1940 that cut off the allied forces. A truly brilliant military mind and would be on my top ten list of generals worldwide. He was a full general by 1940.
You are right, though, Guderian was a great man, it's sad that he's not more recognized for his place in military history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian
"Heinz Wilhelm Guderian (17 June 1888 – 14 May 1954) was a military theorist and innovative General of the German Army during the Second World War. Germany's panzer forces were raised and fought according to his works, best-known among them Achtung - Panzer! He held posts as Panzer Corps commander, Panzer Army commander, Inspector-General of Armored Troops, and chief of staff of the army (Chef des Generalstabs des Heeres). He rose to the rank of full general (Generaloberst) or Colonel General in July 1940. Although he never became a Field Marshal, Guderian is recognized as one of the most prominent generals of WWII.
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Achtung - Panzer!, was written in 1936-37 as an explanation of Guderian's theories on the tank and aircraft's role in modern warfare. The panzer force he created would become the core of the German Army's power during the Second World War, and fight according to what became known as blitzkrieg doctrine. To this day, his contributions to the combined arms tactics are studied throughout military schools from West Point to Sandhurst.
Like many German military professionals, Guderian disliked the Nazis and their attempts to politicize the armed forces. He was chagrined at the Nazi edict banning Jews from the armed forces and stripping certain Jewish veterans of their pensions, and considered resigning his commission in protest. He was dissuaded by his military colleagues, but quite simply Guderian's career outlook (and future war glory) might have held the greater weight and settled his decision to stay with the Wehrmacht.
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"In the Second World War Guderian first served as the commander of the XIX Army Corps in the invasion of Poland and the invasion of France. He personally led the attack that traversed the Ardennes Forest, crossed the Meuse River and broke through the French lines at Sedan. Guderian's panzer group led the "race to the sea" that encircled the bulk of the Allied armies. In 1941 he commanded Panzergruppe Guderian in Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, receiving the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves in July of that year. From October 5, 1941 he led the redesignated Second Panzer Army. During the Barbarossa campaign he led his panzer forces in rapid advances according to the Blitzkrieg doctrine and earned the nickname "Schneller Heinz" (Fast Heinz) among his troops. His armored spearhead captured Smolensk in a remarkably short time and was poised to launch the final assault on Moscow when he was ordered to turn South towards Kiev (see Lötzen decision). He was relieved of command on 25 December 1941 for ordering a withdrawal in contradiction of Hitler's "standfast" order, and transferred to the Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) reserve pool.
After the German defeat at Stalingrad, Guderian was recalled to active service and on 1 March 1943 became the Inspector-General of the Armoured Troops. Here his responsibilities were to oversee the training, production, and use of Germany's panzer forces. On 21 July 1944, after the failure of the July 20 Plot, he became chief of staff of the army (Chef des Generalstabs des Heeres). Hitler dismissed him on 28 March 1945 after an argument over the failed counterattack of an army commander, ending a long series of disagreements between them.
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Originally posted by zeeblebotinteresting man.
"In the Second World War Guderian first served as the commander of the XIX Army Corps in the invasion of Poland and the invasion of France. He personally led the attack that traversed the Ardennes Forest, crossed the Meuse River and broke through the French lines at Sedan. Guderian's panzer group led the "race to the sea" that encircled the bulk of the All ...[text shortened]... ttack of an army commander, ending a long series of disagreements between them.
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Originally posted by General PutzerI remember a guy from the old books named Manstein, or von Manstein, he might be your man.
Guderian.....yeaaaahhhhhhh, could be. It's been years since I read everything I could find about WW2, but I thought there was an obscure major or lieutenent colonel in war plans that had studied the old Von Schlieffen plan and dusted it off, making changes for the advancements in tanks/air power/mechanized infantry, etc., and after he got "discovered" ...[text shortened]... as a great man, it's sad that he's not more recognized for his place in military history.
