@spruce112358 saidNever heard anyone, certainly not Jews reminding anyone of the Romans expelling them. Heard lots of talk about American blacks wanting reparations though, even violently demonstrating to get it.
But expelling most Jews from Israel in 70 CE, ending the Jewish state? We are supposed to remember that forever?
So just to be clear... Slavery. We forget about that as soon as the slave or the master dies.
But Jews being expelled from a piece of property? FIFY-SIX generations later, we are supposed to be holding onto to that fact!? And supporting "giving the land ...[text shortened]... he remote-remote-many-times-remote descendants?
Why? Why be so inconsistent? That makes no sense.
Jews have always lived in Palestine but most were expelled in AD70. They have returned and they are not asking you or anyone for any handouts. The US have given them grants and that is their choice.
So your analogy is rubbish.
@Rajk999 saidNope. You and many others have argued in this Forum for literally years that Israel belongs to the Jews; that it is their land and that they were forced out of it, so they have every right to "reparation" - reclaiming the land that is theirs.
Never heard anyone, certainly not Jews reminding anyone of the Romans expelling them. Heard lots of talk about American blacks wanting reparations though, even violently demonstrating to get it.
Jews have always lived in Palestine but most were expelled in AD70. They have returned and they are not asking you or anyone for any handouts. The US have given them grants and that is their choice.
So your analogy is rubbish.
But when the claim by blacks for reparation for an equally bad (and much more recent) rights violation occurs, you dismiss it out of hand.
Jews are white. Blacks are black. Jew claim good. Black claim bad.
So you see, you've been trapped. You can't get out of this one. Either you believe in racism OR you believe that Jews don't have any right to get Israel "back" - they just took it by naked force. Which means they stole it.
So do you support racism or thievery? You backed yourself into a corner and you have to admit to one or the other.
And note that I didn't set this up as a trap - I wanted to talk about ancestry because it is interesting to me. You walked into this one, @Rajk999. But then this is an awful blindspot for you. Your rage on this topic makes you extremely vulnerable and so you've set yourself up into looking like a hypocrite. You grabbed the rope out of my hands and made yourself a noose.
You should really do some self reflection and try to sort yourself out - for your own good.
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@spruce112358 saidYou are full of $$hite. Palestine was a piece of land, changed hands many times over the last 2000 years. Never once was it a Palestinian state. Never an Arab state. There is no such thing as Palestinian country. More recently it became a British territory. The British then partitioned it. Those are the facts, which I know you are not fond of.
Nope. You and many others have argued in this Forum for literally years that Israel belongs to the Jews; that it is their land and that they were forced out of it, so they have every right to "reparation" - reclaiming the land that is theirs.
But when the claim by blacks for reparation for an equally bad (and much more recent) rights violation occurs, you dismiss it o ...[text shortened]... oose.
You should really do some self reflection and try to sort yourself out - for your own good.
@AThousandYoung saidYou keep saying "the rich should pay a higher rate than the poor due to the utility of money." But we aren't even close to that. I'm telling you rich people pay a LOWER rate than the poor in many cases (and the middle class; they probably have the highest rate of all).
That is not acceptable. The utility of money decreases as more of it accumulates in a person's hands but the ability to acquire money increases. There is a snowball effect that needs to be neutralized and a flat tax would not do that. But a flat tax will force people to pay taxes on money they need to avoid homelessness while keeping taxes low for the insanely rich ...[text shortened]... . I don't see any relevance myself.
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-14/
A flat tax would allow us to get to something closer to fairness because it would be easier to enforce. Having rich people pay a higher percentage could be discussed, but it very hard to quantify where the line belongs. There is no objective way to define what level of inequality is fair, if you see what I mean.
BTW, you are also arguing against sales tax if you argue "utility of money" because the same tax on the same good isn't the same for poor vs rich. And yet the rich pay more sales tax because they buy more stuff. So proportionally, it is fair.
I think a large part of the problem is coupling taxation to welfare - they should be decoupled. What you pay in tax should have nothing to do with whether or not you need help. While something like social security should absolutely be coupled to wealth - millionaires should not be collecting SS because they simply don't need it.
@Rajk999 saidSo you are for theft, then. Well, that's sad. You shouldn't be, you know. It's immoral.
You are full of $$hite. Palestine was a piece of land, changed hands many times over the last 2000 years. Never once was it a Palestinian state. Never an Arab state. There is no such thing as Palestinian country. More recently it became a British territory. The British then partitioned it. Those are the facts, which I know you are not fond of.
@spruce112358 saidYou need to speak clearly instead of these vague lawyer-type nonsense comments
So you are for theft, then. Well, that's sad. You shouldn't be, you know. It's immoral.
There was never such a thing as a Palestinian State / Country.
Lets start there. Do you agree?
If not please state the year it was formed and who it was that STOLE the land from them and committed this alleged THEFT.
Otherwise you are jsut a waste of peoples time.
Take your toys and gtf home.
@spruce112358 saidI don't think exemptions and flat tax are in any way related. I agree that there are many subtle tricks the wealthy use to avoid taxation but having a flat tax would not fix these.
You keep saying "the rich should pay a higher rate than the poor due to the utility of money." But we aren't even close to that. I'm telling you rich people pay a LOWER rate than the poor in many cases (and the middle class; they probably have the highest rate of all).
A flat tax would allow us to get to something closer to fairness because it would be easier to enfo ...[text shortened]... y be coupled to wealth - millionaires should not be collecting SS because they simply don't need it.
@spruce112358
I am extremely suspicious of sales taxes, yes. They are a way that the wealthy try to shift the burden of taxation away from themselves.
Yes, the rich do buy more stuff per person. However the amount of their spending is not proportional to the amount of money they have. Taxes are not intended to punish individuals they are intended to raise money and the rich spend less of their income than the poor do.
@spruce112358 saidLike all the hundreds of billions in tax money that went to Ukraine? Or that put up all the illegals in 4 star hotels, after giving them new phones, nikes, yada yada?
So you are for theft, then. Well, that's sad. You shouldn't be, you know. It's immoral.
@spruce112358 saidC.
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who owned slaves? Should they:
A) Think about how much they owe the descendants of slaves in reparations?
B) Think about voting for an elected representat ...[text shortened]... favors reparations using public tax dollars?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
I am not, generally speaking, in favour of reperations to anyone. That is a slippery slope which can lead to any old group claming they’ve been historically wronged.
I do favour the government helping people who are in need of help, no matter the historic significance. That’s why we pay taxes. Help sort out poverty instead of buying weapons.
@spruce112358 saidIf I wronged somebody in my own lifetime, say I was an unruly youth who robbed them of their money, my conscience later in life may lead me to try and make reparations. - If, however, it was father who was the robber, my sense of liability/responsibility has already been diluted, even more so if we go back further generations. - It is absolutely right to acknowledge/apologise for the sins of our fathers, but our responsibility is to ensure these things never reoccur, not to open the chequebook.
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who owned slaves? Should they:
A) Think about how much they owe the descendants of slaves in reparations?
B) Think about voting for an elected representat ...[text shortened]... favors reparations using public tax dollars?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
(C/D) Not forget about it, but learn from it.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidSo the motivation from this thread came from work I have been doing in ancestry.com. I mapped out all 16 of my great-great grandparents, and I was adding details from the various 'hints' that pop up more and more frequently.
If I wronged somebody in my own lifetime, say I was an unruly youth who robbed them of their money, my conscience later in life may lead me to try and make reparations. - If, however, it was father who was the robber, my sense of liability/responsibility has already been diluted, even more so if we go back further generations. - It is absolutely right to acknowledge/a ...[text shortened]... ngs never reoccur, not to open the chequebook.
(C/D) Not forget about it, but learn from it.
Then I found that my great-great grandfather who died in Columbus, Miss. in 1858 apparently owned 6 slaves, according to his probate document.
Later, I found a great-great-great grandfather who seems to have owned 8 slaves in Maryland in 1850 according to the MD slave census.
I can't see that I ever inherited any wealth or property directly from that side of the family.
But it is quite interesting. It threw the 'reparations' conversation into a different light for me.
“Elon Musk sends Don Lemon to Kindergartenš„
"Everyone was a slave, everyone... We are all descended from slaves. It's just a question of when. Was it more recent or less recent? That's it...š¤
If we keep talking about it (racism) nonstop, it will never go away.
If we keep making that the central thing, it will never go away...
I think we want to get away from making everything a race or a gender or whatever issue and just treat people like individuals."