@Mott-The-Hoople saidOr owned slaves. I think that's broadly speaking, true.
"Everyone was a slave, everyone... We are all descended from slaves. It's just a question of when. Was it more recent or less recent? That's it...🤔
@spruce112358 saidWhat would you do if there was a tangible link. - Say your great-great-great grandfather, who owned the slaves in Maryland, bought a house that was handed down within the family, and was the house you lived in today? Would reparations be a consideration for you? Would you give up your home?
So the motivation from this thread came from work I have been doing in ancestry.com. I mapped out all 16 of my great-great grandparents, and I was adding details from the various 'hints' that pop up more and more frequently.
Then I found that my great-great grandfather who died in Columbus, Miss. in 1858 apparently owned 6 slaves, according to his probate document.
...[text shortened]...
But it is quite interesting. It threw the 'reparations' conversation into a different light for me.
Often these things seem theoretically interesting, but lose their appeal if they impact on our reality.
@spruce112358 saidI think the whole reparation issue is about closeness to the 'crime'.
Or owned slaves. I think that's broadly speaking, true.
For example if your father just died and you inherited his estate and in the three months before he died he killed someone while DUI, would you as his heir have to pay some reparation to the family of the man your father killed? I think most people would consider you morally responsible. As time passes where do the crimes of the fathers no longer matter.
Bill Cosby almost got away with it. But cases as far back as the 70's caught up to him. If he had died before or during the launch of some class action against him, would we be incensed if the litigators were told there's no case for reparation because the perpetrator is dead?
We support payouts when corporations allow insane environmental practices to poison the land and cause communities harm.
So then should repayments for slavery that might include the distance of intervening generations be any different. Why does time allow us amnesia regarding our moral responsibilities?
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidWell, I think that's the great question for people who like to think about morality. As I said, that side of the family passed down almost nothing material to me except their genes.
What would you do if there was a tangible link. - Say your great-great-great grandfather, who owned the slaves in Maryland, bought a house that was handed down within the family, and was the house you lived in today? Would reparations be a consideration for you? Would you give up your home?
Often these things seem theoretically interesting, but lose their appeal if they impact on our reality.
But if they had, I would probably resist giving up my house, agreeing with Ezekiel 18:19-23: "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
However, what if I see ethnic cleansing going on today in Palestine - using weapons my tax dollars paid for? Pushing people out of their homes to make room for others? Can I also wash my hands of that?
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@spruce112358 saidis palastine holding hostages as we speak?
Well, I think that's the great question for people who like to think about morality. As I said, that side of the family passed down almost nothing material to me except their genes.
But if they had, I would probably resist giving up my house, agreeing with Ezekiel 18:19-23: "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity ...[text shortened]... id for? Pushing people out of their homes to make room for others? Can I also wash my hands of that?
@spruce112358
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who tortured heretics, witches, or Jews or Muslims who did not really convert to Roman Catholicism? Should they:
A) Think about how much they owe the descendants of people killed by the Inquisition in reparations?
B) Think about voting for an elected representative who favors reparations using Church resouces?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
@Mott-The-Hoople saidPalestine will return any and all hostages as soon as the Israelis stop blockading them and leave their country in peace.
is palastine holding hostages as we speak?
Israel could have had their people back a year ago.
@moonbus saidOr, what if you live as an Israeli settler in a house in the West Bank which used to belong to a Palestinian family that was forced out in 1948 and whose descendants live in refugee camps in Lebanon?
@spruce112358
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who tortured heretics, witches, or Jews or Muslims who did not really convert to Roman Catholicism? Should they:
A) Think about how much they ...[text shortened]... ho favors reparations using Church resouces?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
What then?
@moonbus saidAbsolutely 90% of the the time the past is worth forgetting. Know it, understand it, and as GhostofDuke said, promise the bad stuff aint happening again. But to want money/compensation for what transpired 400 yrs ago really is for fools and idle minds to worry about.
@spruce112358
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who tortured heretics, witches, or Jews or Muslims who did not really convert to Roman Catholicism? Should they:
A) Think about how much they ...[text shortened]... ho favors reparations using Church resouces?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
If evil happened in this generation or the last, then fix it, by whatever means necessary. Thats the only way to move forward.
@moonbus saidI know I have at least one ancestor who was sanctioned for NOT abandoning Catholicism. Wonder how much I am owed for that? 😀
@spruce112358
How many of you have researched your ancestry for example on ancestry.com? Whether or not you do, here is a debate question:
What should a person do if they find out that they are a direct descendent of a person who tortured heretics, witches, or Jews or Muslims who did not really convert to Roman Catholicism? Should they:
A) Think about how much they ...[text shortened]... ho favors reparations using Church resouces?
C) Fuhgettaboutit
D) Something else (provide comment)
@spruce112358 saidThe period from 1967 saw a large increase in suicide bombers. Palestinians were promised that their families would become rich if these suicide bombers detonate bombs in crowded Israeli school busses, malls eetc. They killed lots of Jews.
Or, what if you live as an Israeli settler in a house in the West Bank which used to belong to a Palestinian family that was forced out in 1948 and whose descendants live in refugee camps in Lebanon?
What then?
To fix that problem Israel threatened the Palestinians, you kill Jews we kill your family, destroy your house, destroy your village and take it over.
This is one of the reasons for Palestinians losing their property.
@spruce112358 saidPersonally I wont even make a joke of how much Im owed as an East Indian for horrors my ancestors went through under the British. Even as a joke it sounds tacky and shallow. I want nothing. I can look after myself. Maybe you can try it.
I know I have at least one ancestor who was sanctioned for NOT abandoning Catholicism. Wonder how much I am owed for that? 😀
@spruce112358 saidPrior to Oct 7th 2023, Palestinians were free of Jews. They were receiving about a billion $$ US in aid. The only problem they had was getting into Israel.
Palestine will return any and all hostages as soon as the Israelis stop blockading them and leave their country in peace.
Israel could have had their people back a year ago.
@spruce112358 saidProbably best to steer clear of biblical guidance, riddled as it is with contradictions. (Ezekiel 18:19-23 for example being contradicted by the entire human race apparently paying for the sins of Adam).
Well, I think that's the great question for people who like to think about morality. As I said, that side of the family passed down almost nothing material to me except their genes.
But if they had, I would probably resist giving up my house, agreeing with Ezekiel 18:19-23: "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity ...[text shortened]... id for? Pushing people out of their homes to make room for others? Can I also wash my hands of that?
@spruce112358 saidyou lie
Palestine will return any and all hostages as soon as the Israelis stop blockading them and leave their country in peace.
Israel could have had their people back a year ago.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-warns-israel-hamas-best-last-chance-end-gaza-war-2024-08-19/