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Debates Forum

  1. Account suspended
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    17 Mar '16 20:46
    15 years for stealing a banner worth a maybe a dollar or two?
    YouTube
    Anyone that goes to North Korea to be cool deserves what they get.
    Another liberal college student that will come back loving the west and capitalism.
    When he's almost 40.
  2. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    17 Mar '16 20:58
    No sympathy.

    I do have sympathy for people born there. They have no choice.

    This idiot knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He broke the laws of the country he intentionally entered and now he's stuck with the consequences. Are the consequences insane? Sure. But he made his own bed.
  3. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 21:184 edits
    Originally posted by sh76 to FishHead111
    No sympathy.
    I do have sympathy for people born there. They have no choice.

    This idiot knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He broke the laws of the country he intentionally entered
    and now he's stuck with the consequences. Are the consequences insane? Sure. But he made his own bed.
    In his public statements, Otto Warmbier admitted that his theft was motivated by hope of financial gain.
    He claimed that a woman in his church had wanted something from the DPRK as a trophy
    and had offered him a used car (worth 10000 USD) to compensate him for his risk.
    If true, then he chose to risk his freedom for hope of money, and he lost his gamble.

    This case reminds me in part of what happened to Michael Fay, an 18 year old white American,
    in Singapore. After being convicted of theft and vandalism, he was sentenced to six strokes of a cane.
    Most of the US media went wild, denouncing Singapore's justice system as barbarous.
    (Many Europeans regard the US justice system with its death penalty as more barbarous.)
    After the US government interceded on his behalf, Michael Fay's sentence was reduced to four strokes.
    Some outraged ignorant Americans even condemned the punishment as 'racist', arguing
    that Michael Fay had been singled out for unusually harsh punishment just because he's white.
    They ignored the fact that a 16 year old Hong Kong Chinese (arrested at about the same
    time) received six strokes of the cane, a harsher punishment than Michael Fay's.
    To sum up, if Michael Fay were not white or a Westerner, then the mainstream US media and
    politicians would have had no objection whatsoever to him being caned in Singapore.
  4. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 21:38
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    15 years for stealing a banner worth a maybe a dollar or two?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMSF18gz9KI
    Anyone that goes to North Korea to be cool deserves what they get.
    Another liberal college student that will come back loving the west and capitalism.
    When he's almost 40.
    Otto Warmbier was studying financial management (apparently aiming for a corporate career) at the University of /Virginia.
    So it seems more likely that he's a pro-capitalist conservative than FishHead111's stereotype of an anti-capitalist liberal.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    17 Mar '16 22:15
    Originally posted by sh76
    No sympathy.

    I do have sympathy for people born there. They have no choice.

    This idiot knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He broke the laws of the country he intentionally entered and now he's stuck with the consequences. Are the consequences insane? Sure. But he made his own bed.
    I'm a little surprised at the hostility towards Warmbier; after all, he was a tourist on a 5 day trip not a defector. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-student-arrest-idUSKCN0V1063

    He also seems to have been singled out for particularly harsh punishment because he was a US citizen and was allegedly forced to confess to US government involvement in his rather sophomoric crime (which would almost certainly not gotten him any jail time in the US, never mind 15 years at hard labor):

    "I never, never should have allowed myself to be lured by the United States administration to commit a crime in this country," he said tearfully as he begged for forgiveness.

    "I wish that the United States administration never manipulate people like myself in the future to commit crimes against foreign countries.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/16/asia/north-korea-warmbier-sentenced/index.html
  6. Joined
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    17 Mar '16 22:26
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    15 years for stealing a banner worth a maybe a dollar or two?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMSF18gz9KI
    Anyone that goes to North Korea to be cool deserves what they get.
    Another liberal college student that will come back loving the west and capitalism.
    When he's almost 40.
    Sympathy aside, and I feel it; he's a bargaining chip. The 15 yer sentence is to get the US's attention that a lot will be needed to get him sprung. From that perspective the damage he did was to US interests.
  7. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 23:222 edits
    Originally posted by JS357 to FishHead111
    Sympathy aside, and I feel it; he's a bargaining chip. The 15 yer sentence is to get the US's attention that
    a lot will be needed to get him sprung. From that perspective the damage he did was to US interests.
    I doubt that Otto Warmbier will serve anything close to his full sentence of fifteen years.
    I suspect that the US government will make a deal for his freedom. I also would not be surprised
    if he receives more privileged treatment (better food, less work) than North Korean prisoners.
    After all, the DPRK would want him to appear in good condition when he returns to the USA.
    The DPRK does *not* want an American 'bargaining chip' to die of overwork or medical neglect.
    In contrast, the DPRK has much less incentive to keep its ordinary prisoners alive.
  8. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 23:332 edits
    Originally posted by sh76 to FishHead111
    No sympathy.
    I do have sympathy for people born there. They have no choice.

    This idiot knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He broke the laws of the country he intentionally entered \
    and now he's stuck with the consequences. Are the consequences insane? Sure. But he made his own bed.
    In the USA, it's not a crime to spit on and tear up a copy of the Quran in public.
    So let's suppose that a proud American visits Saudi Arabia and decides "As an American,
    I have the right to do same thing here, indeed everywhere, that I could do in the USA!"
    Then he spits on and tears up a copy of the Quran in front of a mosque. Would he be right?
  9. Account suspended
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    17 Mar '16 23:38
    Yeah the US will bargain for his release, we'll offer them some sort of concessions to get him back.
    Probably.
    Or they may just keep him for the full 15 just to be dicks.
    China did it to a young American they kept for 20 years, he was released in 1973 , don't recall the specifics, I believe he was charged with dropping seditious leaflets or some such.
  10. Account suspended
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    17 Mar '16 23:391 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In the USA, it's not a crime to spit on and tear up a copy of the Quran in public.
    So let's suppose that a proud American visits Saudi Arabia and decides "As an American,
    I have the right to do same thing here, indeed everywhere, that I could do in the USA!"
    Then he spits on and tears up a copy of the Quran in front of a mosque. Would he be right?
    Another one of your stupid false analogies.
    They don't even make sense, you are so screwed in the head.
  11. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 23:422 edits
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Another one of your stupid false analogies.
    They don't even make sense, you are so screwed in the head.
    In the USA, FishHead111 may feel free to shout insults at the DPRK's supreme leader.
    Would FishHead111 like to exercise his 'right' to do the same when visiting the DPRK?

    I can understand and even sympathize with a visitor disobeying laws when they violate
    some universal principles of human rights. But I don't regard a DPRK prohibition on
    stealing a political banner or sign as some incomprehensible abuse of human rights.
  12. Zugzwang
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    17 Mar '16 23:52
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Yeah the US will bargain for his release, we'll offer them some sort of concessions to get him back.
    Probably.
    Or they may just keep him for the full 15 just to be dicks.
    China did it to a young American they kept for 20 years, he was released in 1973 , don't recall the specifics, I believe he was charged with dropping seditious leaflets or some such.
    The USA has been imprisoning people at Guantanamo for many years without any trials.
  13. Account suspended
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    17 Mar '16 23:571 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In the USA, FishHead111 may feel free to shout insults at the DPRK's supreme leader.
    Would FishHead111 like to exercise his 'right' to do the same when visiting the DPRK?

    I can understand and even sympathize with a visitor disobeying laws when they violate
    some universal principles of human rights. But I don't regard a DPRK prohibition on
    stealing a political banner or sign as some reprehensible abuse of human rights.
    So stealing a banner worth a few cents and getting 15 years at hard labor doesn't sound reprehensible to you?
    Words fail me. You really do suck at thinking.
  14. Zugzwang
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    18 Mar '16 00:033 edits
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    So stealing a banner worth a few cents and getting 15 years at hard labor doesn't sound reprehensible to you?
    FishHead111 has misunderstood or distorted what I wrote. I wrote that there's nothing
    'incomprehensible' about the DPRK *prohibiting* theft of state property. I would note
    that some visitors to the USA who have been convicted of stealing or damaging government
    property have received punishments that they also consider excessive and unfair.
    I also would note that some Americans (disproportionately poor blacks) have received
    sentences that would be much harsher than in nearly every other Western society.

    Did anyone compel Otto Warmbier to steal anything? Was he motivated by his desperate hunger for food?
    So who's responsible for his poor judgment? Is he responsible for his own actions?
    Don't right-wing Americans like to claim that every individual must be held accountable
    for one's own actions? Except, it seems, when it's expedient for them to blame someone else.
  15. Account suspended
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    18 Mar '16 00:55
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    FishHead111 has misunderstood or distorted what I wrote. I wrote that there's nothing
    'incomprehensible' about the DPRK *prohibiting* theft of state property. I would note
    that some visitors to the USA who have been convicted of stealing or damaging government
    property have received punishments that they also consider excessive and unfair.
    I also wou ...[text shortened]... e
    for one's own actions? Except, it seems, when it's expedient for them to blame someone else.
    You keep defending N. Korea's nutty 15 year hard labor sentence for a young college student that took a crummy banner worth almost nothing that was probably going to be taken down and tossed in the trash anyway after a few months.
    Why?
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