Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscribershavixmir
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    02 Jan '21 12:261 edit
    @divegeester said
    Most Brexiters wanted a post Brexit trade deal, I certainly did.

    We got one.
    You wanted sovereignty.
    Half of which you already had, borders etc. And half of which you still don’t have, because of the deal.

    You are in exactly the same place as 4 years ago, with less say on an international scale and much more bureacracy.
    And less freedom of movement for the British.

    πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌ
  2. Subscriberdivegeester
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    02 Jan '21 12:35
    @shavixmir said
    You wanted sovereignty.
    Half of which you already had, borders etc. And half of which you still don’t have, because of the deal.

    You are in exactly the same place as 4 years ago, with less say on an international scale and much more bureacracy.

    πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌ
    If this rhetoric makes you feel better about the UK leaving the EU, getting a trade deal and not starving to death like you’ve been predicting, then good for you.
  3. Subscriberdivegeester
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    02 Jan '21 12:36
    Oh and I forgot...

    Have we left yet?

    YES WE HAVE!

    Happy days.
  4. Subscribershavixmir
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    02 Jan '21 12:45
    @divegeester said
    If this rhetoric makes you feel better about the UK leaving the EU, getting a trade deal and not starving to death like you’ve been predicting, then good for you.
    I never said you were going to starve to death.
    Ethiopa would have thrown a concert for you.

    And as you well know, I’d have booted England out years ago.

    All I am saying is that if this is all you wanted, you’d have been better staying in.
  5. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    02 Jan '21 13:461 edit
    @shavixmir said
    As I stated in my thread: you obviously don’t comprehend what this deal is that’s been signed up to.

    All EU standards have to be complied with.

    Control over UK borders was already a UK thing.
    Fishing rights.. besides the tories caving in, it’s a moot 0,1% of the economy issue.
    And they’ve managed to avoid having to declare off-shore financial storage (and guess who’ ...[text shortened]... s to get and bring goods over thw borders and the UK having zero say in EU matters.

    Do the maths.
    If you think back to the day that D Cameron pleaded with the EU to give ( even an illusion ) of control over the ‘free movement of people aspect’ that he could take back and wave in the face of his own Brexiteer party members. You’ll remember the EU gave him nothing but a humiliating lecture. Hence the 2016 referendum result.
    Now after four years of pointless grief and being told that the UK “cannot have its cake and eat it” ( free trade without freedom of movement ) here we are with free trade without freedom of movement.
    Do you think that there are no EU citizens who think that D Cameron's modest request for the power to temporarily put the brakes on freedom of movement could’ve been handled with a little less arrogance and utter stupidity.
  6. Subscribershavixmir
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    02 Jan '21 16:032 edits
    @kevcvs57 said
    If you think back to the day that D Cameron pleaded with the EU to give ( even an illusion ) of control over the ‘free movement of people aspect’ that he could take back and wave in the face of his own Brexiteer party members. You’ll remember the EU gave him nothing but a humiliating lecture. Hence the 2016 referendum result.
    Now after four years of pointless grief and bei ...[text shortened]... rakes on freedom of movement could’ve been handled with a little less arrogance and utter stupidity.
    As you can see in Europe at the moment, EU countries are free to close their borders if they so wish.

    The UK always maintained passport controls.
    I have no idea what you’re on about.

    The freedom of movement arrangement is in basis the agreement that workers cannot be discriminated against within the EU.
    No work = no freedom of movement.

    The new deal means there are no tariffs, but there is no freedom of movement of goods.
    People can still apply for jobs. And businesses can still attempt to get contracts in each other’s domains (exactly as it is now).

    So...
  7. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    02 Jan '21 16:44
    @shavixmir said
    As you can see in Europe at the moment, EU countries are free to close their borders if they so wish.

    The UK always maintained passport controls.
    I have no idea what you’re on about.

    The freedom of movement arrangement is in basis the agreement that workers cannot be discriminated against within the EU.
    No work = no freedom of movement.

    The new deal means there a ...[text shortened]... sinesses can still attempt to get contracts in each other’s domains (exactly as it is now).

    So...
    I think you misunderstand what freedom of movement is within the EU. It means you can move from one country to the next regardless of whether you have a job to go to and does not allow for individual governments to set any quotas or qualification requirements and ultimately suppresses wages in the host country at street level regardless of what the EU Parliament or commission might want it to look like.
    We have tariff free trade if not frictionless free trade but that was always expected. We can make trade deals with third party countries just as the EU can.
    I think your referring to the schengen area of borderless movement which the UK was never a part of whilst some non EU countries are.
    The fact is workers from the EU have to go through a migration process whereas before they could just jump on a plane or ferry with their EU wide passports. I’m not saying it’s a good thing, I’m a pragmatic remoaner but it is definitely a thing and it’s definitely the thing that sparked this whole Brexit thing off.
  8. Green Boots Cave
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    02 Jan '21 16:47
    @shavixmir said
    As you can see in Europe at the moment, EU countries are free to close their borders if they so wish.

    The UK always maintained passport controls.
    I have no idea what you’re on about.

    The freedom of movement arrangement is in basis the agreement that workers cannot be discriminated against within the EU.
    No work = no freedom of movement.

    The new deal means there a ...[text shortened]... sinesses can still attempt to get contracts in each other’s domains (exactly as it is now).

    So...
    'No work = no freedom of movement'
    and also NO social security.
    Although it was my right, being a EU citizen, when I moved to Germany it was quite difficult to obtain the papers required to live here. And I had no access to state healthcare or social security which was correct under the EU rules.
    I get the impression the UK did this differently - eg,making social security payments - but,if so, that was UK and not EU rules.
  9. Subscribershavixmir
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    02 Jan '21 17:10
    @kevcvs57 said
    I think you misunderstand what freedom of movement is within the EU. It means you can move from one country to the next regardless of whether you have a job to go to and does not allow for individual governments to set any quotas or qualification requirements and ultimately suppresses wages in the host country at street level regardless of what the EU Parliament or commissio ...[text shortened]... but it is definitely a thing and it’s definitely the thing that sparked this whole Brexit thing off.
    It is you who doesn’t understand the freedom of movement.
    If you don’t have a job you will be sent back to the country of origin.

    Holidays are obviously a different matter.
  10. Subscribershavixmir
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    02 Jan '21 17:10
    @biffo-konker said
    'No work = no freedom of movement'
    and also NO social security.
    Although it was my right, being a EU citizen, when I moved to Germany it was quite difficult to obtain the papers required to live here. And I had no access to state healthcare or social security which was correct under the EU rules.
    I get the impression the UK did this differently - eg,making social security payments - but,if so, that was UK and not EU rules.
    Exactly.
  11. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    02 Jan '21 17:312 edits
    @shavixmir said
    It is you who doesn’t understand the freedom of movement.
    If you don’t have a job you will be sent back to the country of origin.

    Holidays are obviously a different matter.
    Well I can tell you there were a lot of Europeans who got off the ferry without a job but to be fair the vast majority lost no time in finding one. I can remember Britain being in the position of having to provide social services and income payments because as you say we could not discriminate between native and European workers, so like many natives who have never worked here they were entitled to income support and job seeker allowance payments as they should be in my opinion. But that was the red meat that the lifelong brexiteers threw into the mix when pressuring Cameron and moulding public opinion.
  12. Subscriberdivegeester
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    02 Jan '21 23:151 edit
    @shavixmir said
    All I am saying is that if this is all you wanted, you’d have been better staying in.
    I disagree, but I recognise your need to find solace in your interpretation.
  13. Subscriberdivegeester
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    02 Jan '21 23:17
    @kevcvs57 said
    If you think back to the day that D Cameron pleaded with the EU to give ( even an illusion ) of control over the ‘free movement of people aspect’ that he could take back and wave in the face of his own Brexiteer party members. You’ll remember the EU gave him nothing but a humiliating lecture. Hence the 2016 referendum result.
    Now after four years of pointless grief and bei ...[text shortened]... rakes on freedom of movement could’ve been handled with a little less arrogance and utter stupidity.
    Once again I acknowledge your balanced view of current and historical proceedings Kev. Brexit was in many ways inevitable.
  14. Subscribershavixmir
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    03 Jan '21 04:24
    @divegeester said
    I disagree, but I recognise your need to find solace in your interpretation.
    There is no solace to be found in my interpretation.
    I’m just stating facts.

    The next step will be: who will the brexiteers turn on when their envisioned future turns out to be a popped bubble?

    But that, my friend, is for a future thread some 6 to 12 months down the road.
  15. Green Boots Cave
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    03 Jan '21 12:511 edit
    @shavixmir said
    There is no solace to be found in my interpretation.
    I’m just stating facts.

    The next step will be: who will the brexiteers turn on when their envisioned future turns out to be a popped bubble?

    But that, my friend, is for a future thread some 6 to 12 months down the road.
    The UK will continue to blame the EU for any problems after Brexit. They have started already when they realised UK musicians would require work permits to tour in the EU.

    'The government says it tried to secure better conditions for UK touring musicians during the Brexit negotiations, but its proposals were rejected by the EU.'
    BBC news.
    That is a lie because the main reason for brexit was to stop the right of people to work anywhere in the EU. But what would you expect from the incompetent UK government that was hand picked according to how strong their brexit views were.
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