The "Troubles" Debate Thread

Getting a little tired and tomorrow's a busy day. Wanted to get up to "Bloody Sunday" January 30, 1972 but I'm not going to make it. You can do some independent study on your own starting here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

@no1marauder said
Anyway back to the story:

With all due respect we don't need the story.

We know about the inequality, we know about RUC violence, we know about
the fear-monger Paisley, we know about Bloody Sunday. We probably agree
almost 100% on the atrocities committed against the Catholics. But where we
part company is the question of IRA legitimacy in retaliatory attacks against the
innocent.

Maybe there is a case targeting the RUC, maybe there is a case targeting the Army
but justifying attacks on civilians is a hard one to pull off.

@no1marauder said
Hate the name but that is what the struggle in the Six Counties (or what I like to call the Artificially Created Loyalist Enclave in Ireland) from the late 60s to the Good Friday Agreement have been popularly called.

My position will be:

the IRA campaign was a legitimate war of self-defense and liberation triggered by a brutal and murderous campaign by the UK and i ...[text shortened]... rder, so others can weigh in immediately on how I'm a bloodthirsty, armchair terrorist.

Have fun.

"campaign by the UK"

Do you believe it is a full enough telling of history to talk of the UK as one or are you just feeling forced to do that by the constraints of time?

I believe that Gandhi's visit to the Mills in Lancashire was a very important moment in history. He wished to apologise for the impact of his home spun campaign on the ordinary working people of the north west whom he saw as having had very little agency in British imperialism. This undoubtedly greatly helped his search for political solutions.

@Duchess64
I rather think a lot of Irish folks believe just what #1 has said. Why would you say that is 'blather'? They cannot have valid opinions? The stance they take are totally refuted by those history books? Which history books are you referring to? And what makes you think they are more valid than #1.
This is not meant to be antagonistic, my 4 grandparents were Irish so that kind of puts me in the argument.

BTW, when I played in an Irish band in Venice Beach California, my band's name was Southwind.

We were contacted by the IRA and offered the position of being musical spokesmen for them.

We did not take them up on the offer but I thought about it.

You have to know the Brits repressed the Irish and it seems fairly well documented the Potato famine was condoned if not started by the Brits.

If that is wrong, please tell me why.

I am here today because my ancestors were forced to leave Ireland and then encountering massive discrimination in the 19th century as a result: "No Irish need apply" because there were literally a million of them and the only respectable job they could get back then was as policemen.

So the Irish ran from one form of suppression to yet another here in the good old USA.

@no1marauder said
Yes, some were.

Here's some numbers that might surprise you:

1785 civilians were killed during the Troubles.

697 by Republican Paramilitary, 1034 by British Security forces and Loyalist Paramilitaries.

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

Who were the "terrorists"?

You have totally misquoted me on the intro to the above post.

Interesting. Could you split the 1034 between us (British security forces) and Loyalist Paramilitaries?

of course you can, but we both know why you chose not to

@no1marauder said
It's a philosophical argument.

Does the deaths of civilians in a war makes that war immoral and/or unjustified?

Let's assume you're not a pacifist to which any violence is immoral and unjustified (I've marched with Quakers who believe this).

Every war is immoral.

@no1marauder said
Hate the name but that is what the struggle in the Six Counties (or what I like to call the Artificially Created Loyalist Enclave in Ireland) from the late 60s to the Good Friday Agreement have been popularly called.

My position will be:

the IRA campaign was a legitimate war of self-defense and liberation triggered by a brutal and murderous campaign by the UK and i ...[text shortened]... rder, so others can weigh in immediately on how I'm a bloodthirsty, armchair terrorist.

Have fun.

Well so far your argument seems to be based on dream feelings and PIRA propaganda regurgitated by a pro PIRA American who thinks it’s reasonable to separate terrorist actions by his favoured terrorists and call them something else.
Your opening statement illustrates your complete ignorance of the complexities at play in N.I. and a total contempt for 50% of it’s population during the Troubles but do carry on.

@no1marauder said
There were a lot of bereaved families, you seem to only be concerned with the ones killed by the IRA.How many bereaved families were there in Dresden in 1945? Does that make the war against Nazi Germany illegitimate?

Which democratically elected Parliament signed off the IRA’s murders?

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif
Just for context 49% of deaths are attributed to PIRA
9% attributed to the British Army
The remainder being attributed to the RUC and Loyalist terrorist groups and smaller Republican terrorist groups.

As I mentioned it’s complex but the graphs in the link break it down.
When No1 claims that loyalist terrorists were the allies of the British Army he’s repeating some of the more imaginative propaganda emanating from the Republican Terrorist side.

@sonhouse said
@Duchess64
I rather think a lot of Irish folks believe just what #1 has said. Why would you say that is 'blather'? They cannot have valid opinions? The stance they take are totally refuted by those history books? Which history books are you referring to? And what makes you think they are more valid than #1.
This is not meant to be antagonistic, my 4 grandparents were Ir ...[text shortened]... olicemen.

So the Irish ran from one form of suppression to yet another here in the good old USA.

See this where I really need to utilise the word idiotic to describe a post.
I’m pretty sure the Irish potato famine was started by a water borne mould and exasperated by the actions / inactions of Irish based landowners and the British Government.
Because of the Irish lobby in the US this is the kind of polemical simplified narrative to the point of ignorance that pervades any discussion on the subject.
Yes the British Government bears a lot of responsibility for the historical ills that have been visited on the people of Ireland, the biggest of which would have been the policy of Plantation in the early 1600s.

@KazetNagorra
Well maybe not immoral from the defenders POV. I don't see anything immoral about stopping pillaging, rape, and the like from invading armies.
Of course the aggressors are usually immoral, seeking booty, land grabs and politically motivated killings can never be justified.

@kevcvs57 said
See this where I really need to utilise the word idiotic to describe a post.
I’m pretty sure the Irish potato famine was started by a water borne mould and exasperated by the actions / inactions of Irish based landowners and the British Government.
Because of the Irish lobby in the US this is the kind of polemical simplified narrative to the point of ignorance that pervade ...[text shortened]... people of Ireland, the biggest of which would have been the policy of Plantation in the early 1600s.

This probably belongs in a different thread, but if you had posted without the first line (which also belongs in a different thread) I'd just be thinking about the important points being made instead of thinking about this post, just saying.

@petewxyz said
This probably belongs in a different thread, but if you had posted without the first line (which also belongs in a different thread) I'd just be thinking about the important points being made instead of thinking about this post, just saying.

It wasn’t me that bought the potato famine into the discussion Pete I’m just responding to another posters attempted conflation of the subjects.
I’d much rather stick to the period between say, 1950 and the Good Friday agreement.

Edit
If we have to discuss this moribund poisonous issue at all.

@kevcvs57 said
https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif
Just for context 49% of deaths are attributed to PIRA
9% attributed to the British Army
The remainder being attributed to the RUC and Loyalist terrorist groups and smaller Republican terrorist groups.

As I mentioned it’s complex but the graphs in the link break it down.
Wh ...[text shortened]... he’s repeating some of the more imaginative propaganda emanating from the Republican Terrorist side.

It will be child's play to show that the UK security forces cooperated with the Loyalist Paramilitaries including in the planning of civilian murders.

@kevcvs57 said
It wasn’t me that bought the potato famine into the discussion Pete I’m just responding to another posters attempted conflation of the subjects.
I’d much rather stick to the period between say, 1950 and the Good Friday agreement.

Edit
If we have to discuss this moribund poisonous issue at all.

Sorry, I was ambiguous. I meant that what I was about to say belonged in a different thread. So 'this' referred to my post and not the potato famine.