The "Troubles" Debate Thread

@no1marauder said
Your historical ignorance is noted. In many areas where famines occurred, governments were too inefficient or distant to actually effectively remedy the conditions causing the famine. This was surely not true of the British Empire and Ireland in the 1840s.

If someone wants to start that thread, I'll bring forth the relevant facts and data to show that the Irish "Famine" in the 1840s was less a natural disaster than a Crime Against Humanity.

You keep asserting that your going to prove this and that but all I’m seeing is partisan Irish American opinion that wants to white wash the Republican terrorists out of the Troubles to be replaced by Robin Hood and his Merry Men, and blithely argue this to people who actually witnessed their terrorism, your arrogance and largesse with the truth on this subject are noted and not for the first time.
You are not arguing for the Irish you are arguing for PIRA your mother and child murdering heroes.

@divegeester said
So would you support the actions of ISIS by this same principle?

How could he not without destroying his credibility.
911 was perpetrated against a major financial centre integral to the economy of an enemy that was militarily occupying the perpetrators lands and still is.
In No1s world anyway.

@no1marauder said
The figures show that about 80% of those killed by Loyalist Paramilitaries and over half those killed by British Security forces were civilians. The figure for the Nationalist Forces is about 1/3.

Again, who was the "terrorists"?

Who killed the most civilians?
Half of the British Armies tally would be about 4% of those killed a third of PIRA’s tally would be about 16 - 17% of those killed.
What was your question again?

@kevcvs57 said
You keep asserting that your going to prove this and that but all I’m seeing is partisan Irish American opinion that wants to white wash the Republican terrorists out of the Troubles to be replaced by Robin Hood and his Merry Men, and blithely argue this to people who actually witnessed their terrorism, your arrogance and largesse with the truth on this subject are noted and ...[text shortened]...
You are not arguing for the Irish you are arguing for PIRA your mother and child murdering heroes.

Hysterical appeals to emotionalism via repeating of various propaganda themes aren't as impressive a debating tactic as you seem to think.

@kevcvs57 said
Who killed the most civilians?
Half of the British Armies tally would be about 4% of those killed a third of PIRA’s tally would be about 16 - 17% of those killed.
What was your question again?

You need a remedial math course.

I've already shown the figures; the Brits, in the uniform of the Army or of the Security forces or in the non-uniforms of their allies in the Loyalist Paramilitaries, killed about 60% of the civilians who lost their lives in the Uprising. And, unlike the IRA, civilians were the majority of those they killed; a vast majority by the Loyalist Paramilitaries, their actual front line troops.

@no1marauder said
Hysterical appeals to emotionalism via repeating of various propaganda themes aren't as impressive a debating tactic as you seem to think.

If you know that , then why do you do it?

@no1marauder said
You need a remedial math course.

I've already shown the figures; the Brits, in the uniform of the Army or of the Security forces or in the non-uniforms of their allies in the Loyalist Paramilitaries, killed about 60% of the civilians who lost their lives in the Uprising. And, unlike the IRA, civilians were the majority of those they killed; a vast majority by the Loyalist Paramilitaries, their actual front line troops.

Stop lying about the loyalist terrorists being allies of the British Army they were a direct response to PIRA’s decision to turn a righteous protest campaign against anti catholic policies and practices by the then still powerful Protestant hegemony in the six counties into an armed conflict against the British State and loyalist population in general. A conflict that was petering out due to lack of support until the Bloody Sunday massacre of Republican / Catholic civilians.
In short your figures are based on a lie of your own making and therefor meaningless.

@kevcvs57 said
And the individual smallholder Irishmen who in effect created a monoculture out of the potato, do they bare any responsibility at all or are they hapless children.
I’ve accepted the British Governments responsibility for what happened but casting them as pantomime villains and everybody other actor as innocent downtrodden angels is not going to give a grownup picture of what actually created the horror.

I have to admit Kev that I am surprised that you are going down this particular avenue. I use football crowds as a good measure of popular culture so I hope you will excuse me talking once again about Liverpool Football Club which was historically viewed as the protestant club of the city in the divided past.

Liverpool fans sing a song called 'The Fields of Anfield Road' set to the tune of 'The Fields of Athenry' referred to locally as a 'famine song' that makes direct reference to the Corn Laws and the morally bankrupt withholding of corn that went on and resulted in the starvation. You might think that these things go unnoticed by football fans, but when the song first arrived there was heated debate amongst Liverpool fans as to whether it was okay. Rightly or wrongly this appeared to be resolved by people agreeing it was a 'famine song' and not 'a rebel song'. Regardless of the terms and language it seems clear that nobody has a problem at all acknowledging the role of the Corn Laws which interestingly enough were repealed by The Duke of Wellington whose Ghost moves amongst us.

Seriously though, why create division around the issues like the role of the Corn Laws where there really isn't any to the best of my knowledge.

@petewxyz said
I have to admit Kev that I am surprised that you are going down this particular avenue. I use football crowds as a good measure of popular culture so I hope you will excuse me talking once again about Liverpool Football Club which was historically viewed as the protestant club of the city in the divided past.

Liverpool fans sing a song called 'The Fields of Anfield Road' ...[text shortened]... the issues like the role of the Corn Laws where there really isn't any to the best of my knowledge.

Are you ok Pete I haven’t mentioned the corn laws or any songs and I’ve probably repeatedly accepted the role of the British Government but I didn’t even raise the issue of the potato famine and it’s loosely agreed that we’re discussing the Troubles as the title suggests. I’m sorry if facts get in the way of a football song but the idea that one actor was solely responsible for something on that scale is just plain wrong headed no matter what your fellow Liverpool fans think.
If you want to join this discussion on the side that says the PIRA were not terrorists then feel free, there’s no shame in it, it’s a perfectly legitimate opinion other than it being blatantly factually wrong.

@kevcvs57 said
Are you ok Pete I haven’t mentioned the corn laws or any songs and I’ve probably repeatedly accepted the role of the British Government but I didn’t even raise the issue of the potato famine and it’s loosely agreed that we’re discussing the Troubles as the title suggests I didn’t raise the question of the potato famine. I’m sorry if facts get in the way of a football song b ...[text shortened]... s no shame in it, it’s a perfectly legitimate opinion other than it being blatantly factually wrong.

Kev, I have not taken any side and I would not wish to be represented as doing so. My point is why open up divisions when it seems more likely that political solutions will be found if wounds are allowed to heal and the past is left in the past.

No. 1, I would make the same point to you as well. (Edit, please note my post nearest to the top of page 2)

Beyond that I won't participate further if my contribution is not clearly recognisable as saying let wounds heal and don't create unnecessary division.

@petewxyz said
Kev, I have not taken any side and I would not wish to be represented as doing so. My point is why open up divisions when it seems more likely that political solutions will be found if wounds are allowed to heal and the past is left in the past.

No. 1, I would make the same point to you as well. (Edit, please note my post nearest to the top of page 2)

Beyond that I wo ...[text shortened]... ibution is not clearly recognisable as saying let wounds heal and don't create unnecessary division.

I didn’t open the division over the potato famine Pete it was opened by Sonhouse who was using in support of No1s argument.
The potato blight was always going hit Ireland harder than most places partly because of the monoculture that developed due to the popularity of the potato as a nutritious and filling source of food.
The fact that this was exasperated by the inept and at times downright callous attitudes and responses of the British Government and wealthy Aristocratic British landowners is not in question.
It’s also irrelevant to the topic under discussion and a distraction to it. So if you want to start a potato famine thread I will try to flesh out my position on it. And I’m sure it will attract a wide variety of posters and opinions.

@divegeester said
Which democratically elected Parliament signed off the IRA’s murders?

Which democratically elected government signed off on the murders by loyalist paramilitias?

The debate will get nowhere on those grounds.

@no1marauder said
A famine is where there is not enough food and people starve.

There wasn't a famine in Ireland in the late 1840s; large quantities of food were being exported off the island even in the face of mass starvation and suffering.

It does belong in another thread, but let's get the facts straight; that so many died in Ireland during the blight was because of government po ...[text shortened]... the blight (which spread across most of Europe without horrific consequences anywhere but Ireland).

Correct. The British government had food stockpiled in Liverpool and refused to let it go to Ireland.

@kevcvs57 said
How could he not without destroying his credibility.
911 was perpetrated against a major financial centre integral to the economy of an enemy that was militarily occupying the perpetrators lands and still is.
In No1s world anyway.

The difference is that ISIS is invading countries and laying down a law according to religious beliefs... and the IRA was not...?

Just thinking out loud here...