@kevcvs57 saidA famine is where there is not enough food and people starve.
It wasn’t me that bought the potato famine into the discussion Pete I’m just responding to another posters attempted conflation of the subjects.
I’d much rather stick to the period between say, 1950 and the Good Friday agreement.
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If we have to discuss this moribund poisonous issue at all.
There wasn't a famine in Ireland in the late 1840s; large quantities of food were being exported off the island even in the face of mass starvation and suffering.
It does belong in another thread, but let's get the facts straight; that so many died in Ireland during the blight was because of government policies and social conditions forcibly imposed on the Irish People, not primarily because of the blight (which spread across most of Europe without horrific consequences anywhere but Ireland).
@no1marauder saidBy that logic there hasn't been a famine anywhere on Earth since the 18th Century.
A famine is where there is not enough food and people starve.
There wasn't a famine in Ireland in the late 1840s; large quantities of food were being exported off the island even in the face of mass starvation and suffering.
It does belong in another thread, but let's get the facts straight; that so many died in Ireland during the blight was because of government po ...[text shortened]... the blight (which spread across most of Europe without horrific consequences anywhere but Ireland).
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@kazetnagorra saidBS.
By that logic there hasn't been a famine anywhere on Earth since the 18th Century.
I'm not talking about world wide supplies incapable of reaching an area in sufficient time; I'm talking about a deliberate policy to remove food from an area at a time when people are starving.
A British parliamentarian suggested the Irish eat grass.
@kevcvs57 saidThe figures show that about 80% of those killed by Loyalist Paramilitaries and over half those killed by British Security forces were civilians. The figure for the Nationalist Forces is about 1/3.
https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif
Just for context 49% of deaths are attributed to PIRA
9% attributed to the British Army
The remainder being attributed to the RUC and Loyalist terrorist groups and smaller Republican terrorist groups.
As I mentioned it’s complex but the graphs in the link break it down.
Wh ...[text shortened]... he’s repeating some of the more imaginative propaganda emanating from the Republican Terrorist side.
Again, who was the "terrorists"?
@wolfgang59 saidThe campaign's legitimacy needs to be established first.
With all due respect we don't need the story.
We know about the inequality, we know about RUC violence, we know about
the fear-monger Paisley, we know about Bloody Sunday. We probably agree
almost 100% on the atrocities committed against the Catholics. But where we
part company is the question of IRA legitimacy in retaliatory attacks against the
innocent.
Mayb ...[text shortened]... e there is a case targeting the Army
but justifying attacks on civilians is a hard one to pull off.
From there I'll deal with the false claim that the IRA deliberately targeted civilians as a matter of policy.
@no1marauder saidYeah, so it was a famine caused/worsened by government policy. Like most famines in human history, and almost all of them in recent history.
BS.
I'm not talking about world wide supplies incapable of reaching an area in sufficient time; I'm talking about a deliberate policy to remove food from an area at a time when people are starving.
A British parliamentarian suggested the Irish eat grass.
@no1marauder saidYou don't have to defend, say, Bloody Sunday in order to disagree with the IRA's bombing of "only" 1/3 civilians.
The figures show that about 80% of those killed by Loyalist Paramilitaries and over half those killed by British Security forces were civilians. The figure for the Nationalist Forces is about 1/3.
Again, who was the "terrorists"?
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@kazetnagorra saidYour historical ignorance is noted. In many areas where famines occurred, governments were too inefficient or distant to actually effectively remedy the conditions causing the famine. This was surely not true of the British Empire and Ireland in the 1840s.
Yeah, so it was a famine caused/worsened by government policy. Like most famines in human history, and almost all of them in recent history.
If someone wants to start that thread, I'll bring forth the relevant facts and data to show that the Irish "Famine" in the 1840s was less a natural disaster than a Crime Against Humanity.
@kazetnagorra saidThat dishonestly assumes a deliberate policy to kill those civilians which did not exist.
You don't have to defend, say, Bloody Sunday in order to disagree with the IRA's bombing of "only" 1/3 civilians.
Unfortunately, civilians do get killed in wars, even just ones. The figures show which of the sides was more callous towards civilians and which made more efforts to avoid civilian deaths.
@no1marauder saidAnd the individual smallholder Irishmen who in effect created a monoculture out of the potato, do they bare any responsibility at all or are they hapless children.
A famine is where there is not enough food and people starve.
There wasn't a famine in Ireland in the late 1840s; large quantities of food were being exported off the island even in the face of mass starvation and suffering.
It does belong in another thread, but let's get the facts straight; that so many died in Ireland during the blight was because of government po ...[text shortened]... the blight (which spread across most of Europe without horrific consequences anywhere but Ireland).
I’ve accepted the British Governments responsibility for what happened but casting them as pantomime villains and everybody other actor as innocent downtrodden angels is not going to give a grownup picture of what actually created the horror.
@kevcvs57 saidThat "culture" was created because of an economic system imposed upon them by foreign invaders and tyrants. Nonetheless, there remained sufficient food on the island to feed the People if that had been the priority of the British government and the rich landholders who dominated Ireland's economy.
And the individual smallholder Irishmen who in effect created a monoculture out of the potato, do they bare any responsibility at all or are they hapless children.
I’ve accepted the British Governments responsibility for what happened but casting them as pantomime villains and everybody other actor as innocent downtrodden angels is not going to give a grownup picture of what actually created the horror.
It, of course, wasn't.
