Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 20:52
    I was perusing the link

    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/13/1469209/-BNR-Sanders-Soars-In-A-Plethora-Of-New-Polling-amp-Bernie-s-Ad-Buys-Are-Working

    when I came across a picture a little ways down the page. It shows a US demonstrator holding a sign that says

    SINGLE PAYER
    FRANCE HAS IT.
    CANADA HAS IT.
    TAIWAN HAS IT.
    WE WANT IT.

    For some reason this struck me viscerally. This is one of the most pressing issues of our time, inextricably intertwined with the issue of an inexorably encroaching US oligarchy. We've been told time and again over the decades by our masters, both Republican and Democrat, that we are not allowed to have guaranteed, universal health care.

    Spain has it. Germany has it. Australia has it. Finland has it. Lithuania has it. Japan has it...
  2. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 22:112 edits
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I was perusing the link

    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/13/1469209/-BNR-Sanders-Soars-In-A-Plethora-Of-New-Polling-amp-Bernie-s-Ad-Buys-Are-Working

    when I came across a picture a little ways down the page. It shows a US demonstrator holding a sign that says

    [b]SINGLE PAYER

    FRANCE HAS IT.
    CANADA HAS IT.
    TAIWAN HAS IT.
    [i]WE WAN ...[text shortened]... has it. Germany has it. Australia has it. Finland has it. Lithuania has it. Japan has it...
    There's nothing stopping all those that 'want it' from forming and funding their own UHC organization. Probably the aspect that is not attractive to you about this scenario is that you don't get to force your 'ideal' on those that don't believe in it.

    I think what you're angling at, that your agenda lurking just below the surface of your whining is, is you want it but want someone else to pay for it.

    There are only 3 ways for the goobermint to provide this.

    1/ Raise taxes
    2/ Print more money
    3/ Borrow more money
  3. Germany
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    13 Jan '16 22:22
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    There's nothing stopping all those that 'want it' from forming and funding their own UHC organization. Probably the aspect that is not attractive to you about this scenario is that you don't get to force your 'ideal' on those that don't believe in it.

    I think what you're angling at, that your agenda lurking just below the surface of your whining is, is y ...[text shortened]... for the goobermint to provide this.

    1/ Raise taxes
    2/ Print more money
    3/ Borrow more money
    People getting together and voluntarily paying for their health care collectively is called "health insurance."

    People who "don't believe" in cheaper, higher quality health care are either sadists, masochists, or both.
  4. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 22:39
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra

    People who "don't believe" in cheaper, higher quality health care are either sadists, masochists, or both.
    Yes I see your point, the sadists are those that believe you should be able to live your life free from force, threats of force (and fraud).
  5. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 22:411 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I think what you're angling at, that your agenda lurking just below the surface of your whining is, is you want it but want someone else to pay for it.
    No, I want to cut out the greedy middlemen that are getting fat off the misery of the sick and injured. Medical procedures cost much more in the US than they cost in other countries (pick one - Belgium) because of all the non-medical parties that come to suck on the system's teat: insurance companies and their stockholders, pharmaceutical executives demanding their bonuses, lawyers, administrators, fraudsters, and so on. A single-payer system (Medicare for all) cuts many of them out of the loop, while long-overdue regulation of Big Pharma, the insurance industry extortionists, and the practice of fraudulent overcharging for simple services would finish the job.

    A family paying $6000 premiums a year for a private insurance plan that has some ridiculous $2000 deductible and only covers 75% of a $50,000 operation can trade it all in for guaranteed Medicare with a modestly increased payroll deduction (and a hell of a lot of peace of mind to boot). Meanwhile the Koch brothers would still be free to "opt out" and buy private insurance if they so desire. Take a poll and find out how many senior citizens would rather opt out of their Medicare and buy private insurance. No one touches their Medicare, because they like their Medicare and want to keep it.

    Anyone with eyes to see and an objective mindset can compare statistics between countries and see that the US private insurance "system" is a fiscal and humanitarian disaster with higher costs and lower returns.
  6. Standard memberbill718
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    13 Jan '16 22:44
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I was perusing the link

    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/13/1469209/-BNR-Sanders-Soars-In-A-Plethora-Of-New-Polling-amp-Bernie-s-Ad-Buys-Are-Working

    when I came across a picture a little ways down the page. It shows a US demonstrator holding a sign that says

    [b]SINGLE PAYER

    FRANCE HAS IT.
    CANADA HAS IT.
    TAIWAN HAS IT.
    [i]WE WAN ...[text shortened]... has it. Germany has it. Australia has it. Finland has it. Lithuania has it. Japan has it...
    Corporate America, who owns and operates most of our lawmakers has decided it's far more profitable to use the "pay or die" system. America is a country of the corporations, for the corporations, and by the corporations. "The People" are just a resource, and it does not matter what they want.
  7. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 22:48
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    No, I want to cut out the greedy middlemen that are getting fat off the misery of the sick and injured. Medical procedures cost much more in the US than they cost in other countries (pick one - Belgium) because of all the non-medical parties that come to suck on the system's teat: insurance companies and their stockholders, pharmaceutical executives dema ...[text shortened]... insurance. No one touches their Medicare, because they like their Medicare and want to keep it.
    I'm with you on the de-regulation and a separation of the state and the medical industry.

    That's the biggest hurdle you face when it comes to setting up your voluntary UHC system.

    Much cheaper and faster to visit the vet who isn't encumbered by numerous guvamint buratcracies.
  8. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 22:51
    Originally posted by bill718
    Corporate America, who owns and operates most of our lawmakers has decided it's far more profitable to use the "pay or die" system. America is a country of the corporations, for the corporations, and by the corporations. "The People" are just a resource, and it does not matter what they want.
    Another reason why health care expenditures are so high in the US is that someone with no insurance, or a monstrous deductible, will opt to "tough it out" when they get sick for fear of visiting financial ruin upon themselves. Then it turns out they have a problem that could have been fixed for $100 if they had gone to the doctor earlier, only now it will cost $25,000 and/or is terminal.
  9. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 22:53
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I'm with you on the de-regulation and a separation of the state and the medical industry.

    That's the biggest hurdle you face when it comes to setting up your voluntary UHC system.

    Much cheaper and faster to visit the vet who isn't encumbered by numerous guvamint buratcracies.
    I don't know what the hell you're blithering about, but it's clear that you either didn't read what I said or it went right over your iron-plated head.
  10. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 23:01
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I don't know what the hell you're blithering about, but it's clear that you either didn't read what I said or it went right over your iron-plated head.
    I'm sure you wouldn't want to force your 'voluntary UHC scheme' on unwilling citizens.

    So I was just pointing out the major hurdle you're going to face in setting up your 'voluntary UHC scheme' is goobermint regulation.

    The biggest baddest corporation of them all, the state, doesn't like competition.

    I wish you luck with your mission, and it is indeed commendable that in this age you are an advocate for voluntary society.
  11. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 23:06
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I'm sure you wouldn't want to force your 'voluntary UHC scheme' on unwilling citizens.

    So I was just pointing out the major hurdle you're going to face in setting up your 'voluntary UHC scheme' is goobermint regulation.

    The biggest baddest corporation of them all, the state, doesn't like competition.

    I wish you luck with your mission, and it is indeed commendable that in this age you are an advocate for voluntary society.
    I'm not going to get into it with your lizard id fantasies about the rugged individual being an island unto himself, free from all social responsibilities.
  12. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 23:13
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    ...individual being an island unto himself.
    Congrats, we haven't heard that tired, droll, clichéd strawman in months.
  13. Zugzwang
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    13 Jan '16 23:31
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I was perusing the link

    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/13/1469209/-BNR-Sanders-Soars-In-A-Plethora-Of-New-Polling-amp-Bernie-s-Ad-Buys-Are-Working

    when I came across a picture a little ways down the page. It shows a US demonstrator holding a sign that says

    [b]SINGLE PAYER

    FRANCE HAS IT.
    CANADA HAS IT.
    TAIWAN HAS IT.
    [i]WE WAN ...[text shortened]... has it. Germany has it. Australia has it. Finland has it. Lithuania has it. Japan has it...
    The absence of universal health care in the United States is one reason why political scientists
    classify the United States as an extreme right-wing society, an outlier among Western democracies.
  14. Standard memberSoothfast
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    13 Jan '16 23:311 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Congrats, we haven't heard that tired, droll, clichéd strawman in months.
    You just have a bizarre attitude concerning the money in your pocket. Money that wouldn't exist without a society. Money that comes into your pocket, goes out, and comes in again. This thread wasn't really set up to provide blinkered foreign Randians a platform to come tell Americans how they should get their medical care. But hey, fire away, it is a "debate forum" after all...
  15. SubscriberWajoma
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    13 Jan '16 23:56
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    You just have a bizarre attitude concerning the money in your pocket. Money that wouldn't exist without a society. Money that comes into your pocket, goes out, and comes in again. This thread wasn't really set up to provide blinkered foreign Randians a platform to come tell Americans how they should get their medical care. But hey, fire away, it is a "debate forum" after all...
    The thread was set up so we could all hear how you know better than us how we should live our lives.

    How you'd like to dish out 'responsibilities' because you are somehow more qualified to do that.
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