Originally posted by Sam The ShamActually, Japanese archives declassified in the 1990s show that the Soviet declaration of war on 8th August and subsequent invasion of Manchuria was the final straw that resulted in the Japanese surrender.
Fine, do some research and get back to us on how close they were to surrendering, we're all most interested in your hypothesis.
Originally posted by bjohnson407the key phrase here is: "European theater".
Ike thought they were ready to surrender anyway. If he's right, you'd have to be pretty messed up to think it's ok to drop the bomb.
http://www.reformation.org/leo-szilard.html
"The incident took place in 1945 when Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. I was not, of course, called upon, officially, for any advice or counsel concerning the matter, because the European theater, of which I was the commanding general, was not involved, the forces of Hitler having already been defeated. But the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of "face." The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions."(General Eisenhower, The White House Years, pp. 312-313).
Originally posted by Sam The ShamCurtis Lemay wanted to keep firebombing cities. it was all planned out.
The B-29's were bombing Japan all over the place at will, it's true. How many more of the big massive firebomb raids would it have taken? At what cost to Japanese civilians? More than the two A-bombs? Who knows. Who cares, it's a done deal anyway.
Tokyo was ALREADY firebombed.
if the US had dropped a nuke on the emperor in Tokyo, who would have surrendered for the japanese?
Originally posted by Sam The ShamDropping a bomb is not something you do in a popularity contest, except in some circles, of course.
Considering the Japanese treatment of people in the countries they conquered, I think your opinion would have made you very unpopular in most of Asia around September 1945.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I respectfully disagree.
There was no humane reason to choose anything else than '1. Do not drop the bomb'. There was enough information available about the effects of using the bomb, both in terms of casualties (non military), and on the politics of the years to come (like the cold war and issues with other countries building the bomb). It was a crime against humanity, perhaps the biggest ever.
First of all, weren't most of the American soldiers fighting in the Pacific "non-military" before Pearl Harbor was bombed?
Also, I think it is wrong to judge morality solely based on the short term body count. For example, there were more casualties in Tokyo by non-atomic bombs over a longer period than those from the atomic bombs. I do not agree that X deaths from atomic bombs is a crime against humanity while X deaths from non-atomic bombs is an accepted part of war.
Consider Nagasaki. Most in the city continued their daily activities in spite of air raid warning and in spite of American bombers in plain site overhead. Few who took even the most basic cover suffered effects from radiation.
Consider the point of view of American soldiers contemplating a land invastion of Japan. There was no evidence then, nor is their any now that Japan would have surrendered without a land invasion on the mainland. How many American soldiers must die to save one Japanese civilian? How many American wives and children must be bereaved to save Japanese civilians?
If you say the atomic bomb should not have been used, you must have some ratio. 1000 US soldier deaths to save 1000 Japanese civilians? 2000 to save 1000? 10,000 to save 1000?
Japanese POW camps had already been given orders (and extra machine guns) to kill all POWs should a land invasion begin. Already 27% of allied POWs in Japan died. Must it be 60% for Americans to still claim their action was justified? 100%?
It would be great if there were never an atomic bomb. Einstein would not have helped had he not feared the nazi's would get the bomb first. If the invention of the atomic bomb was inevitable, I say the world is better off that the American's invented it first.
Certainly the Germans would have rather the Americans had an atomic bomb than the Russians.
Originally posted by techsouthWhy do we go around and around about Hiroshima every year... and its no where near August yet?
I respectfully disagree.
First of all, weren't most of the American soldiers fighting in the Pacific "non-military" before Pearl Harbor was bombed?
Also, I think it is wrong to judge morality solely based on the short term body count. For example, there were more casualties in Tokyo by non-atomic bombs over a longer period than those from the atomic ...[text shortened]... Certainly the Germans would have rather the Americans had an atomic bomb than the Russians.
Its one of the 'Blame America First' crowds favorite weapons for saying how evil the United States is.
They will ramble on all day about how many people were killed and we didn't have to do it.
When you try to pin them down on the question of how many lives military and civilian on both sides were saved by dropping the bombs, they do the best darn tap dance you ever seen.
They will go off on every tangent about the topic possible .... what they won't do is give you a straight answer
My Dad who was stationed on Tinian at the time said that his commander told him if an invasion of Japan was requiered, he would die, along with conservatively 999,999 other souls ... Japanese military, civilians and Allies