Originally posted by DelmerThe Lend-Lease Act was passed by Congress in March 1941, well into the secomd year of the war. Up to that point Britain was paying full price for the supplies to fight Hitler. Russia did not enter the war until later that year.
Millions of dollars worth of supplies going to Russia and England.
Perhaps you should stop getting your history from Hollywood.
Originally posted by steerpikeIn July, 1940 FDR transferred 50 destroyers to the British Navy. In January, 1941 $7 billion was authorized by Congress and war material began to flow to England. By the end of the war the total U.S. dollars spent in aid exceeded $50 billion. England received $31,392,361,000, Russia received $11,297,883,000. France and various other countries received the rest. -American Heritage History of WWII.
The Lend-Lease Act was passed by Congress in March 1941, well into the secomd year of the war. Up to that point Britain was paying full price for the supplies to fight Hitler. Russia did not enter the war until later that year.
Perhaps you should stop getting your history from Hollywood.
And of course the $50 billion did not include the American men and ships lost by the Merchant Marine while transporting the war materials from the USA to foreign ports.
Originally posted by DelmerDoes your American Heritage History of WWII also state what was paid for what were regarded as near obsolete destroyers? In the Destroyers for Bases Agreement the US were allowed all the rights, power, and authority within the bases leased for 99 years rent free in the following areas:
In July, 1940 FDR transferred 50 destroyers to the British Navy. In January, 1941 $7 billion was authorized by Congress and war material began to flow to England. By the end of the war the total U.S. dollars spent in aid exceeded $50 billion. England received $31,392,361,000, Russia received $11,297,883,000. France and various other countries received the res ...[text shortened]... ost by the Merchant Marine while transporting the war materials from the USA to foreign ports.
* Avalon Peninsula
* South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland
* Great Bay of Bermuda
* Eastern side of the Bahamas
* Southern coast of Jamaica
* Western coast of St. Lucia,
* West coast of Trinidad
* Gulf of Paria,
* Antigua — Antigua Air Station
* British Guiana within fifty miles of Georgetown.
That was the extent of support in 1940.
Originally posted by steerpikeFor a list of and the accomplishments of the Lend-Lease destroyers, see http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq59-24a.htm.
Does your American Heritage History of WWII also state what was paid for what were regarded as near obsolete destroyers? In the Destroyers for Bases Agreement the US were allowed all the rights, power, and authority within the bases leased for 99 years rent free in the following areas:
* Avalon Peninsula
* South and eastern coasts of Newfoundl ...[text shortened]... British Guiana within fifty miles of Georgetown.
That was the extent of support in 1940.
All but one saw action and they participated in the capture or sinking of 12 enemy submarines. One even destroyed the only drydock large enough for the superbattleship Tirpitz (the sister ship of the Bismarck) on the Atlantic coast, forcing it to anchor in Norwegian ports where it was sunk by long range bombers. Not bad for a bunch of "obsolete" destroyers!!
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Originally posted by no1marauderYes, the former USS Buchanan, built in 1919 and decommissioned in April 1937 was transferred to the British Navy in 1940. It destroyed a dry dock - by ramming it with depth charges aboard.
For a list of and the accomplishments of the Lend-Lease destroyers, see http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq59-24a.htm.
All but one saw action and they participated in the capture or sinking of 12 enemy submarines. One ...[text shortened]... ng range bombers. Not bad for a bunch of "obsolete" destroyers!!
As you say - not bad for an "obsolete" destroyer. A kamikaze style attack was the best option for this US Navy reject.
And they were not Lend-Lease - they were traded for 99 year leases for military bases at roughly five World War One era destroyers per base. A deal the hard pressed British could not turn down.
Originally posted by steerpikeThen the Brits should have blown off the deal. It was a better deal for them than the one they made for the Czechs at Munich.
Yes, the former USS Buchanan, built in 1919 and decommissioned in April 1937 was transferred to the British Navy in 1940. It destroyed a dry dock - by ramming it with depth charges aboard.
As you say - not bad for an "obsolete" destroyer. A kamikaze style attack was the best option for this US Navy reject.
And they were not Lend-Lease - they wer ...[text shortened]... ive World War One era destroyers per base. A deal the hard pressed British could not turn down.
Originally posted by no1marauderThe British were grateful for destroyers from the First World War - they needed everything they could lay their hands on. They might have made a mess of Czechoslovakia but they fronted up for Poland.
Then the Brits should have blown off the deal. It was a better deal for them than the one they made for the Czechs at Munich.
But the United States was not saving the world in 1940 as Delmer seems to think - they were making deals.
Originally posted by steerpikeThe United States is a democracy; the people in 1940 did not want to get involved in ANOTHER European war. Roosevelt was sympathetic to the plight of the British and was doing everything he could to get public support for entering the war, but that wasn't easy. Even with the leasing of the bases, I believe Lend-Lease only passed the Senate by one vote!
The British were grateful for destroyers from the First World War - they needed everything they could lay their hands on. They might have made a mess of Czechoslovakia but they fronted up for Poland.
But the United States was not saving the world in 1940 as Delmer seems to think - they were making deals.
If the Brits and/or the French had stood firm in the Ruhr, in Spain, in Austria, in Czechslovakia, etc. etc. Hitler would have been removed before the outbreak of a general war. It's asking a lot to expect a country thousands of miles away to come to your rescue when you were willing to sell a weaker country down the river to preserve your peace not even two years before. Think about the history logically and try not to let your anti-American bias override the historical facts.
Originally posted by no1marauderThe historical facts are - the US was neutral in 1940 while the Nazis invaded Europe. So when soemone claims youi saved the world in 1940, I think it needs correction.
The United States is a democracy; the people in 1940 did not want to get involved in ANOTHER European war. Roosevelt was sympathetic to the plight of the British and was doing everything he could to get public support for entering the war, but that wasn't easy. Even with the leasing of the bases, I believe Lend-Lease only passed the Senate by one ...[text shortened]... the history logically and try not to let your anti-American bias override the historical facts.
To blame the British and Commonwealth allies for Hitler's expansion when they were virtually the only opposition to Hitler in 1940 is just silly.
Originally posted by steerpikeThanks for the sophistry; I'll remind the Spanish and Czech democratic governments how brave the British and Commonwealth allies were to stand up to Hitler and the fascists. And the hypocrisy to say the US was making deals!! The mind reels.
The historical facts are - the US was neutral in 1940 while the Nazis invaded Europe. So when soemone claims youi saved the world in 1940, I think it needs correction.
To blame the British and Commonwealth allies for Hitler's expansion when they were virtually the only opposition to Hitler in 1940 is just silly.
Originally posted by no1marauderThe Americans and Soviets made deals right up to the time they got bombed. The British choose to fight for Poland. That is the difference.
Thanks for the sophistry; I'll remind the Spanish and Czech democratic governments how brave the British and Commonwealth allies were to stand up to Hitler and the fascists. And the hypocrisy to say the US was making deals!! The mind reels.
Originally posted by steerpikeReally? And how many troops did they send to Poland? How many British troops went to France while Poland was being conquered? Do you remember reading about that huge Fench and British offensive in the west to divert Nazi forces from Poland in September 1939??????
The Americans and Soviets made deals right up to the time they got bombed. The British choose to fight for Poland. That is the difference.
Did you know that the first British soldier to be killed in WW II wasn't until November 1939, almost a month after Warsaw fell? "Fight for Poland"; don't be asinine.
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I think there's a real danger of slipping into a chain of what-iffery here: while it's absolutely right to condemn the appeasers on the Right for selling out Czechoslovakia, the fact is that they were far from a single homogenous political bloc, they were to some extent reflecting popular horror of a general war which they knew from experience would be ghastly in scope and thought might well leave Europe in ruins (which it did), and at least some of them were simply buying time to build materiel for the war they felt would inevitably come anyway. It worked: Britain in 1939 was militarily much better prepared than it would have been in 1937 and 1938, although the anticipated consumer meltdown they were hoping for in the Third Reich never emerged.
On a parochial point about anti-Americanism here, minor but worth noting: prior to WWII, there was no working-class anti-Americanism in the UK, quite the opposite, in fact - anti-Americanism was a solely bourgeois and patrician phenomenon based on envy of their rising empire and power bloc. That changed in WWII because of the way they saw the US selling them out, as steerpike has just pointed out, however supportive the DNC was looking at the time - anti-American sentiment grew not because of abstract envy, as with the middle-class, but because Washington was flogging their country crappy frigates (for a price, Ugati, for a price) and standing idly by while their families were being bombed to death by the Luftwaffe. Personally I'm an inciviste and have no time at all for anti-Americanism, but the moment when it took popular root (and its existence is wildly exaggerated by Anglophobic hacks like John Gibson) occurred at about that time.
Originally posted by no1marauderNo troops were sent to Poland - the invasion led the British to declare war on Germany.
Really? And how many troops did they send to Poland? How many British troops went to France while Poland was being conquered? Do you remember reading about that huge Fench and British offensive in the west to divert Nazi forces from Poland in September 1939??????
Did you know that the first British soldier to be killed in WW II wasn' ...[text shortened]... until November 1939, almost a month after Warsaw fell? "Fight for Poland"; don't be asinine.
And if the first British soldier was killed in November 1939, it was still two full years before the Americans got involved.
Originally posted by steerpikeSo what? The fact of the matter is you Brits were perfectly willing to sell out small countries to cut deals with the Nazis. Even the Poles grabbed a piece of Czechslovakia after Germany dismembered it! Why should the US have felt compelled to rush to the aid of a bunch of European countries who were cutting each other's throats? The US had entered WWI and at Versailles the French and the British grabbed as many colonial possessions as they could!
No troops were sent to Poland - the invasion led the British to declare war on Germany.
And if the first British soldier was killed in November 1939, it was still two full years before the Americans got involved.
The British became Anti-American because we didn't jump in the war early enough to suit them???? Tough titty. Since when is it America's job to save a decrepit empire that was still repressing hundreds of millions over the entire globe? You Brits have brass balls to complain that the US didn't save your a** early enough!